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Dual Role SU-76

11 Jun 2019, 10:21 AM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2359

Before the barrage got changed, the SU-76m was a dual role unit: it was a light tank destroyer (see StuG) and a mobile artillery tractor (see Priest).

You could get it to explode tanks, or you could get it to smash buildings and team weapons. In 1v1, it was ocassionaly a viable alternative to the T-70 against a defensive player.

However, it was a big problem in teamgames: a pack of SU-76s could use their barrage (which was free) all at once, obliterating any anti-tank gun in their path. The sheer volume of 60 range AT fire would be able to deal with any vehicle you sent at it too. It was extraordinarily difficult to deal with.

So here's my question.

Assuming you wanted to make the SU-76 a dual role unit again (ie: it doesn't cost munitions to shell stuff with it), how would you do it without recreating a teamgame monster?
11 Jun 2019, 10:26 AM
#2
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1430 | Subs: 3

Stationary mode: SU-76 becomes immobile but can shoot with artillery fire: range, damage and duration of fire as leIG 18 and M1.
11 Jun 2019, 10:37 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5529 | Subs: 1

I guess one could also try:
Switchable firing modes direct and indirect fire but with allot smaller range (50?)
A single HE round
Requiring a unit to call in the barrage and having global CD

On the other hand the barrage is already very powerful once vet 2 is reached, the units cost efficiency has little to do with how frequently is being used.
11 Jun 2019, 10:40 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13188 | Subs: 6

I'd rather the ability to barrage be kept as an ability, but a cost was made less prohibitive.

SU-76 is a unit that doesn't work well unless you have at least 2 and when you do have 2 and want to barrage, you're not going to be able to due to muni attrition they possess.

Switchable fire modes would be overstepping on cost efficiency compared to both StuGs.
11 Jun 2019, 10:51 AM
#5
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1754 | Subs: 2

The SU-76 might find its role again if the IS-2/KV-2 are tied to tech and the M-42s become less cost effective, and T-70/M-42 stalling spam into IS-2/KV-2 call-in won't work anymore. The SU-76 is still cost effective in its AT role and it might see more use again when the Soviets need some cheap AT to support their T-34s again.

I personally think the barrage is where it's supposed to be, behind a big pay wall so it can only be used in vital engagements. I personally dislike specialized units having a dual role (old ISG, ZiS, SU-76, M-42 etc.) because they screw up the strategic resource management balance that is very important in the mid game - for example Ostheer needs to invest 320MP into a pure AT unit while Soviets can invest the same 320MP into a unit that is good at AT but can also deal considerable damage to infantry (even if its at an additional munitions cost). Dual core roles should only be given to generalist units, because generalist units do not excel at either role. A secondary role for specialized units should only ever be a bonus, like how the Panther has decent AI damage because it's very expensive or the StuG has a top gunner for some self defense, but it should never be the selling point.
11 Jun 2019, 10:53 AM
#6
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1430 | Subs: 3

Another feature that is not implemented in the game: loopholes for DT-29 machine gun. The self-propelled crew could self-defense from infantry with a machine gun.
aaa
11 Jun 2019, 10:59 AM
#7
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1430

Stationary mode: SU-76 becomes immobile but can shoot with artillery fire: range, damage and duration of fire as leIG 18 and M1.


Rush to t3 to get a leig. Thats brilliatn
11 Jun 2019, 11:04 AM
#8
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1430 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2019, 10:59 AMaaa


Rush to t3 to get a leig. Thats brilliatn


Its firing range can be longer, the real firing range of the Su-76 in artillery mode - 13 kilometers from the Su-76, can do something like the Sexton analog.
11 Jun 2019, 11:52 AM
#9
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 741 | Subs: 4

- Can work it like the KV-2
Becomes stationary, becomes blind (?) and is now a mortar analog.

Makes it harder to snap-use on the fly.
I'd assume rapid firing of 4-6 shells had to be prepared in advance.
(Plus, it takes awhile to do the math, trajectory, etc, for decent
indirect).

It's a bit like Sherman 75 dual ammo type, but more punitive.
Going stationary indirect mode leaves it more vulnerable to Armor Push,
so it's balanced. Being blind doesn't help (Everyone is busy loading
shells).

I'd probably throw in a flare for when it's immobile.
11 Jun 2019, 12:07 PM
#10
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 206

The su76 fine as is. The arty should cost muni thats all. It already has low armour and hp. Its dammage is lower. Its pen will be lower. All it has is its range and arty imo.

If it needs to become immobile to use the arty. The arty should be free and the hp/armour need to go up.

Otherwise the su76 is back to being nearly usseles
11 Jun 2019, 16:03 PM
#11
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 580

Could just reduce the muni cost, or have the barrage scale better* with veterancy so you get "your money's worth".

The issue with it is that if you do get it, it's so easy to flank that you have to play either super defensively -- which means you give up the opportunity to field a t-70 which is a much more effective shock unit and you can afford to be more aggressive with.

IMO you only go su-76 if you're desperate for anti-tank and you didn't build tier-2, so no zis gun.

In the past I advocated for it bunkering down and turning into a mini howitzer on par with the USF Pack-Howitzer with HE shells. I would still like to see that since Soviets were historically big on artillery.

I would also consider changing the barrage to something like this (details care malleable since I'm just spitballing):

Same muni cost, but, when activated:

Adds HE Shells with lower pen (but still some, like maybe 100 pen) and much better AOE somewhere between an HE Sherman and t-34, but without the damage to insta-gib a whole squad (so maybe 120 damage at the center but less outside of the immediate impact zone).

Modify it's gun profile while ability is active so that it is effective at hitting infantry without turning into an absolute squad-wiper. The shots would also be arced and not flat trajectory, maybe like a StuG-E.

*edit for clarification.
11 Jun 2019, 16:09 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5529 | Subs: 1

Could just reduce the muni cost, or have the barrage scale with veterancy so you get "your money's worth".

...

barrage does scale with veterancy and SU-76 vets too (abnormally) fast.
x125% damage at vet 2
-25% barrage recharge at vet 2
+11.1% barrage range at vet 3
11 Jun 2019, 16:15 PM
#13
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 580

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2019, 16:09 PMVipper

barrage does scale with veterancy and SU-76 vets too (abnormally) fast.
x125% damage at vet 2
-25% barrage recharge at vet 2
+11.1% barrage range at vet 3


Sloppy wording on my part, I should have emphasized the "make it worth your money" part.

It might vet too fast, I leave that as another topic, but my point was that the bonuses the barrage gets aren't great enough. The recharge and range aren't important, the damage arguably is, but given what you use the barrage for what I would like to see is the AOE improved (but not necessarily the kill radius, just make hits more consistent) and the rate between shots improved so that once you start shooting the enemy can't just walk 5 feet to the side and be safe. Conversely, knock 5 muni cost off the barrage per veterancy to just make it more spammable as is without being completely free.

EDIT: the last part (enemy just walking 5 feet away) is also why I proposed it change it's gun profile to a Stug-E/Sherman HE style one so that you can keep re-aiming at the enemy's infantry during the time of the ability's activation.
11 Jun 2019, 16:49 PM
#14
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1431

IMO barrage could be a combined ability, like the OST arty commander and pzwerfers.
Let cons be able to call for su76 barrages and give them a little more range for the indirect fire role.

SU has plenty of arty tools, one more wouldnt hurt at all and could revive su76s

Other approach could be increasing barrage shell AOE, so there is no need for 2 su76s to force a displace (not wipe) an ATG.
11 Jun 2019, 19:46 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5529 | Subs: 1



Sloppy wording on my part, I should have emphasized the "make it worth your money" part.

It might vet too fast, I leave that as another topic, but my point was that the bonuses the barrage gets aren't great enough. The recharge and range aren't important, the damage arguably is, but given what you use the barrage for what I would like to see is the AOE improved (but not necessarily the kill radius, just make hits more consistent) and the rate between shots improved so that once you start shooting the enemy can't just walk 5 feet to the side and be safe. Conversely, knock 5 muni cost off the barrage per veterancy to just make it more spammable as is without being completely free.

EDIT: the last part (enemy just walking 5 feet away) is also why I proposed it change it's gun profile to a Stug-E/Sherman HE style one so that you can keep re-aiming at the enemy's infantry during the time of the ability's activation.

AOE and damage are interlinked. x125% damage mean x125% kill radius.
11 Jun 2019, 19:51 PM
#16
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 580

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2019, 19:46 PMVipper

AOE and damage are interlinked. x125% damage mean x125% kill radius.


... obviously if we were adjusting it to have a bigger AOE with the intent to not have a huge insta-kill radius, that would also be modified.


11 Jun 2019, 19:57 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5529 | Subs: 1



... obviously if we were adjusting it to have a bigger AOE with the intent to not have a huge insta-kill radius, that would also be modified.




"but given what you use the barrage for what I would like to see is the AOE improved (but not necessarily the kill radius, just make hits more consistent)"

This sentence make little sense. Since Su-76 get extra damage it has is AOE damaged improved.

In addition the Su-76 has AOE radius of 6 which is quite big.

Finally I can't remember any unit that get AOE radius us a vet bonus.

Actually a vet 2 barrage is quite lethal.
11 Jun 2019, 20:55 PM
#18
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 580

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jun 2019, 19:57 PMVipper


"but given what you use the barrage for what I would like to see is the AOE improved (but not necessarily the kill radius, just make hits more consistent)"

This sentence make little sense. Since Su-76 get extra damage it has is AOE damaged improved.

In addition the Su-76 has AOE radius of 6 which is quite big.

Finally I can't remember any unit that get AOE radius us a vet bonus.

Actually a vet 2 barrage is quite lethal.


I threw out multiple ideas for what an alternate use of the SU-76 could be -- from stationary light-howtizer mode to timed shell+gun profile changes to just leaving it as is with the barrage being cheaper.

In the first two examples, the unit's secondary fire mode would be changed in such a way that ideally it is not OP but useful and versatile. If this means the damage bonus from veterancy is changed for the alt-fire mode, so be it. Whatever stats it has now may not be relevant to this hypothetical changed version.

I'm confused why you need me to spell this out, but hopefully that explained it.

If the unit was changed, then many things -- including it's vet bonuses or damage may also be changed if it was needed to make it as balanced as can be.
11 Jun 2019, 22:33 PM
#19
avatar of Hannibal
Moderator Badge

Posts: 360

I think the problem with the SU76 is that it was meant to be build at the mid/end of the LV phase to first fight light vehicles and then scale into the midgame to be a decent contender to out-of-position-P4s or just take a shot at an attacking P4 to force it back before the P4 gets too close. Following the Soviet theme of multi-role, non-specialized units, it also had an arty function to make up for it's relatively poor AT performance compared to the StugIII. Since it was very spammable against Ostheer that needs to rely on a fast P4, the SU76 became too potent and got double nerfed. Since the barrage costs now 35 mun, it does not make sense to buy it early, even if your opponent did not have a vehicle yet, because the barrage costs quite a lot of ammo. The barrage (same for the ZiS AT gun) is usually not worth it unless you're desperate of can force retreat a super important unit, usually a MG42. So you build the SU76 only as a reaction to enemy vehicles, otherwise it is practically useless.

Now there are two problems:
Against OKW, you either run into a Luchs or a Puma, or a P4 that can be penetrated only unreliably. While it is okay against a Luchs, you're still better off with a T70 that also fights the Luchs but kills infantry as well. If the enemy has a Puma, the SU76 is risky because it is slow and has no turret. And the OKW P4 has too much armor, so it's just better to save the fuel and wait for a SU85 instead.
Against OST the SU76 is an okay-ish option only if you're behind on fuel and the enemy already has a P4. But due to the AT nerfs the SU (which was actually meant to be Soviets AT option) is not THAT cost-effective on the AT departement anymore, even against a P4 (you need 5 pens plus a snare to kill it and the SU76 hits unreliably). If you're not behind on fuel, just get a T70 instead or wait for a T34 or SU85. You don't need a dedicated AT vehicle for Ostheer's "Super light" vehicles (251/222), PTRS or a single ZiS will do fine.

Like I said in another thread, I would lower the barrage ability to about 20-25 mun. That makes it affordable to use, but not spammable and should still shut down the SU76 spam like it was pre-nerf.
11 Jun 2019, 23:31 PM
#20
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 414 | Subs: 1

Sounds like we yet again have a cost to performance problem again.

Problem: Zis-3 and SU-76 barrages are not good enough to justify their cost.

Solution: Reduce the cost of barrage ability.

Making it cost 25 munitions on both units sounds like a viable solution to me.
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