Login

russian armor

OST Grens

PAGES (10)down
31 Mar 2019, 08:38 AM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13801 | Subs: 7


When it was the last time you saw a M5 HT on SU? Maybe that was you last match too

Actually, I do like to use M5 in forward reinforce way.
It arrives waaay too late to be of any use and quad was nerf butchered into irrelevance so we see T-70 exclusively.
31 Mar 2019, 09:09 AM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 02:41 AMBizrock
Lets do all the math, the best way to quantify the effective is by comparing DPS/Manpower.
....
Greens have the best long DPS, just losing to Sections, and they still win vs Volks in every range.
People need to know that you can't expect a Squad of Grens win Vs a squad of penals, they have different MP prices, but 5 squads of grens can win against 4 squads of Penals, and they are the same price.
...

Only you math is bit of. It is not only DPS that matter but EHP also. If you want to find the "value" of a unit you have to add the square of its DPS and the square of its EHP.

In addition the 4 Penals do not cost as much as 5 LMG Grenadiers since you also need 300 munition for 5 lmg grenadiers.
31 Mar 2019, 09:23 AM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13801 | Subs: 7

Grens with LMG do win against penals at long range tho.
31 Mar 2019, 10:41 AM
#44
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 546 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 01:45 AMspajn
Yes and CoH1 since release. Halftrack are decent for mobile reinforcements but not worth the fuel because it will not give you the same map control as a light vehicle will (which your opponent will get) so you will still get left behind. Also if you ever lose the front line your half track is most likely taken out by your opponent light vehicle and thats why people don't use half track and if they do they go flamer HT because that will actually get you map control for a while.

Comets dont need to have the same AI as brummbär because ostheer is 4 man squads. Comets bounce shots from short range even from panthers, how is that a overpriced cromwell?


A) Sounds like you could use a lesson in halftrack use. They're not the best in 1v1, but in the much tighter frontlines of 2v2 (and up) they're a godsend.

B) Can we please stop pretending that the allies only fight grenadiers, for the love of pleb. Even Ost can get 5 man everything now. Ostruppen exist. Volks are all 5 man. Panzerfusis, already a good meta unit in team games, are 6. Similarly, the Brum fights plenty of 4 and 5 man squads when squaring off against the Brits and USF. There's no golden 4/6 ratio, there hasn't been since WFA launched.
31 Mar 2019, 11:07 AM
#45
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 579

The problem is not really grens but rather a combination of buffs to allied units and nerfs to ost units. Grens are meant to be used to support mg, sniper, lvs until tanks arrive. Problem is allies can now exert to much pressure and grens cannot hold ground to provide support to other units.

The problem has risen slowly due to "balance experts" slowly buffing every allied unit that was deemed to be under performing which when looked at in isolation is not an issue but when combine with other buffs simply add up to an insurmountable wall.

I don't think the issue would be so bad if Ost tanks weren't nerfed as much as they have been, The nerfs to to stug are over the top, the Ostwind still sucks, the P4 could really have its moving accuracy buffed and Tiger and T4 units need a buff to their armour so that they can actually push forward when allies are camping.

The other issue is grens do not perform at all well when the allied player invests in indirect fire and unfortunately USf has indirect fire in spades. Grens generally have to remain stationary when engaging the enemy but as soon as they get hit they instantly forfeit the engagement and have to retreat or risk getting wiped. Allies on the other hand ( who also have larger squads generally ) can keep moving when under fire from indirect. To add insult to injury is the fact that ost will rarely be able to wipe the allied indirect units unless they go afk.

I don't mind units dealing high damage if they can be countered with reasonable effort but that is just not the case with allied indirect fire.

I find the amount of indirect fire so bad now that almost every game vs Usf requires me to get the command panzer just try and keep units alive while being constantly barraged to death.

The other issue that bugs the shit out of me is how units will almost always take damage from grenades if you try to move out of the way. This because the changes to spacing cause 1 unit to stay anchored in place while the rest of the squad moves. So when my opponent throws a grenade and I am madly clicking like a "fucking lunatic" trying to get my squad to move, I often still take massive damage, all because the squad wont respond. Small change but contributes to the problem.

I don't think there is a simple solution Tbh because this has come about slowly through numerous small changes.

Edit : IS lategame OPAF :)
31 Mar 2019, 19:27 PM
#46
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

Give ost already a positive unique factionbonus like all other faction has...it has no bonus...except you think 4model sqauds are a bonus instead a disadvantage..
31 Mar 2019, 19:28 PM
#47
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13801 | Subs: 7

Give ost already a positive unique factionbonus like all other faction has...it has no bonus...except you think 4model sqauds are a bonus instead a disadvantage..

(psst, that bonus is all weapon upgrades and grenades are free by default, locked behind time gate only instead of side costs, its also additional tier with units above "T3" level mediums)
31 Mar 2019, 19:45 PM
#48
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1550

Give ost already a positive unique factionbonus like all other faction has...it has no bonus...except you think 4model sqauds are a bonus instead a disadvantage..


You ever notice how OST has a full extra tier of tanks that USF doesn't have? If you want free officers instead of the p4, stug, and Ostwind, go right ahead. Or you can trade the panther, werfer, and brumbarr, your call
31 Mar 2019, 22:25 PM
#49
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 196

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 09:09 AMVipper

Only you math is bit of. It is not only DPS that matter but EHP also. If you want to find the "value" of a unit you have to add the square of its DPS and the square of its EHP.

In addition the 4 Penals do not cost as much as 5 LMG Grenadiers since you also need 300 munition for 5 lmg grenadiers.


Do you mean Health Points?

I just used normal grens in a 4 man squad and every other squad without upgrades. I didn't even do the math with upgrades, if you want to compare the squad effectiveness with upgrades you can do it yourself *not talking about vipper
1 Apr 2019, 08:29 AM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 22:25 PMBizrock


Do you mean Health Points?

I just used normal grens in a 4 man squad and every other squad without upgrades. I didn't even do the math with upgrades, if you want to compare the squad effectiveness with upgrades you can do it yourself *not talking about vipper

EHP stands for effective hit point. It is the total HP of the squad taking into account target size.
1 Apr 2019, 08:33 AM
#51
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 317

reinforce cost 30 to 28 will good.....
1 Apr 2019, 14:06 PM
#52
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 890



A) Sounds like you could use a lesson in halftrack use. They're not the best in 1v1, but in the much tighter frontlines of 2v2 (and up) they're a godsend.

B) Can we please stop pretending that the allies only fight grenadiers, for the love of pleb. Even Ost can get 5 man everything now. Ostruppen exist. Volks are all 5 man. Panzerfusis, already a good meta unit in team games, are 6. Similarly, the Brum fights plenty of 4 and 5 man squads when squaring off against the Brits and USF. There's no golden 4/6 ratio, there hasn't been since WFA launched.


Who talks strategy for team games? Scrubs thats who.
1 Apr 2019, 19:13 PM
#53
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1586 | Subs: 2




B) Can we please stop pretending that the allies only fight grenadiers, for the love of pleb. Even Ost can get 5 man everything now. Ostruppen exist. Volks are all 5 man. Panzerfusis, already a good meta unit in team games, are 6. Similarly, the Brum fights plenty of 4 and 5 man squads when squaring off against the Brits and USF. There's no golden 4/6 ratio, there hasn't been since WFA launched.


true, although someone needs to play OST in the first place.
1 Apr 2019, 19:56 PM
#54
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 234

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2019, 20:55 PMKatitof
Have you tried not to face mash that upgrade button on 251 and actually use it to reinforce in combat?


I tried it, but it´s really frustating, cause it pushes infantry out of cover when moving it near them
2 Apr 2019, 00:30 AM
#55
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 597

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 19:28 PMKatitof

(psst, that bonus is all weapon upgrades and grenades are free by default, locked behind time gate only instead of side costs, its also additional tier with units above "T3" level mediums)


Weapon upgrades that cap at 1 LMG per squad? Wheras every allied faction can have 2 or more per squad. (new doc of guard paras can get 3 DP's).

Id rather pay a fuel upgrade to buy grens their nade for the same cost as the brits or yanks, if it meant that a scott wasnt gonna roll on and 1 shot my vet-3, 4-man gren squad with no chance of avoiding it.

The issue here, and why I made this post, wasnt really about grens output. (while still being the only core infantry of any faction you cant blob and A-move delete all the enemy) Keep the cap of weapons at 1 LMG. Thats fine,

Its the survivability. THAT is the issue the 5-man squad needs to address. The fact that you cant go balls deep with grens, like you can other basic infantry, because their wipe potential (especially vs indirect fire, but even on retreat) is insane. Thats where Osteer lacks in competitive play, when one mortar shell hits and kills 2 guys, you HAVE to retreat, but if it was a 5 man squad and you lost 2? It can often be worth staying around and risking it.

Thats why even in these tourny's we see US and UKF blobs with 2 LMG's in a blob walking across a road in terminator mode. Volks cant really do that, but grens def cant do that.

RNG is a big part of this game sure, and I know a big argument is against this game in ESL because of the RNG values. And to be honest? They're right. Ive never had a 5-6 man squad 1-shot by a mortar, lieg or US-Pak howitzer. But ive had a LOT of 4 man squads 1-shot by Mortars, US-pac's, Kyetusha's and Scott carriages. 4-man squads are just more vulnerable. Unless the game physics change, that is just a FACT. But for some reason, other than the Engineer's and RE's the Allies have no 4 man squads. Not even their elites. Whereas the Axis have 4 man squads everywhere. Even their elites like obers, falshims and jagers. Which can all be insta-wiped by RNG despite what micro the owning player puts in. Compared to the 5-6-man shocks, para's, commando's etc

Thats not balance, thats not even asymmetrical balance.... thats just plain imbalance.
2 Apr 2019, 15:54 PM
#56
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2019, 00:30 AMCorsin

Thats why even in these tourny's we see US and UKF blobs with 2 LMG's in a blob walking across a road in terminator mode. Volks cant really do that, but grens def cant do that.


I dunno what Tourney's you are watching, tell which ones, so I can go find these replays being casted.
2 Apr 2019, 15:58 PM
#57
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1951

What could go wrong with giving Ostheer the best anti-blob weapon (Brummbar), the best HMG, the best Pak Gun and strong lmg blobs
2 Apr 2019, 19:36 PM
#58
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

A bolster squad would be nice for Grens and Pios. The reason is the USF howizter, and other explosives. It annihilates squads pretty easily, particularly the 4 man sqauds. Osteehr do not really stand a chance against it.

Bolster squad should cost the same as Brits, but for those you choose apply it on, which you can choose after purchase for each unit, to have it or not.

The difference would be is a 5 man squad would have no Panzerfaust if you decide to choose, make it less versatile but for more AI plus durability. Can build sandbags instead.

Options for Bolstering would be the following
1. Veteran Squad Leader 60 ammo
2. MG42 60 ammo
3. Maybe Panzerfaust costing 30 ammo, meaning you can NOT purchase the other 2 options, just maybe. Survival increase without any more DPS increase but can have Panzerfaust.

You can only pick one of them. Instead of Panzerfaust for option 1 and 2, they can build sandbags. This will decrease their overall versatility. This is balanced and it is a good idea I believe. It would be worse if they still had Pzfaust if they had bolster squad with weapon upgrades. This is fair.

What do you guys think?
2 Apr 2019, 19:44 PM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13801 | Subs: 7

A bolster squad would be nice for Grens and Pios. The reason is the USF howizter, and other explosives. It annihilates squads pretty easily, particularly the 4 man sqauds. Osteehr do not really stand a chance against it.

If that would be even remotely accurate argument, then howi would be nerfed, not axis infantries buffed against literally every single unit they face against.

Options for Bolstering would be the following
1. Veteran Squad Leader 60 ammo
2. MG42 60 ammo
3. Maybe Panzerfaust costing 30 ammo, meaning you can NOT purchase the other 2 options, just maybe. Survival increase without any more DPS increase but can have Panzerfaust.

You can only pick one of them. Instead of Panzerfaust for option 1 and 2, they can build sandbags. This will decrease their overall versatility. This is balanced and it is a good idea I believe. It would be worse if they still had Pzfaust if they had bolster squad with weapon upgrades. This is fair.

What do you guys think?

Its already in game, you have that in one of very recently reworked commanders.
If you really do feel its so much needed, pick and play with this commander.
2 Apr 2019, 20:46 PM
#60
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783


If that would be even remotely accurate argument, then howi would be nerfed, not axis infantries buffed against literally every single unit they face against.


Its already in game, you have that in one of very recently reworked commanders.
If you really do feel its so much needed, pick and play with this commander.



It think you may be right Katitof. The Grens would become somewhat strong. I do not think Bolster Squad is the solution. I think the USF howizter is too deadily against Infantry overall, 1 is already more than enough to change the game.

The USF howizter which I always experience squad wipes every now and then needs some adjustments
-Decrease their Price for
-Decreasing either their AOE or Damage, currently both are quite powerful with the addition of long range.

Maybe that is all it needs because the hardest time Wehrmacht has is particulary USF in my opinion.

The USF Howizter is so strong, direct hits which does happen most of the time, squad wipes.

What do you guys think?

It should not be nerfed heavily but to an extent where it is nerfed particularly against 4 man squads. No guarantee squad wipes, as it currently does.
PAGES (10)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Oberkommando West flag N1cko
  • Oberkommando West flag Scotch1
  • Soviets flag Frosty
  • Soviets flag Beatricks Swire
uploaded by Frost

Board Info

250 users are online: 10 members and 240 guests
Crecer13, vfl81595, DerKuhlmann, Siphon X., ZeroZeroNi, SneakEye, piwawsky, Doomlord52, Sturmpanther, han497pi
221 posts in the last 24h
1179 posts in the last week
5041 posts in the last month
Registered members: 69284
Welcome our newest member, vfl81595
Most online: 918 users on 27 Oct 2019, 01:03 AM