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22 Mar 2019, 13:48 PM
#21
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3899

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2019, 13:32 PMKatitof

Old volks had 80% of gren DPS without shreck.
as i said a bit less
22 Mar 2019, 15:07 PM
#22
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

Why was panzerschrek removed from Volksgrenadier, and now OKW has 5 man PFusi from T0 with panzerschrek? Hmm.
22 Mar 2019, 15:07 PM
#23
avatar of Grim

Posts: 751

+1 on the no shreks on PzFuss camp.

Don't want any more double shrek blobs in team games or a return to the volkshrek blob days.

22 Mar 2019, 15:20 PM
#24
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 498 | Subs: 1

Give then the german AT rifle

It works for Tank Hunters in SOV, afer all.
22 Mar 2019, 15:28 PM
#25
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1897 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2019, 15:07 PMNosliw
Why was panzerschrek removed from Volksgrenadier, and now OKW has 5 man PFusi from T0 with panzerschrek? Hmm.


There is a large number of reasons that makes the current implementation different:
- Volks back then were 235MP and 5 popcap.
- Volks back then had insane veterancy.
- The old 4x Volks Kar98K did way more AI damage than the current 3x Pfussie Kar98K.
- OKW did not have anything else to spend munitions on, and now has multiple ammunition upgrades available.
- Volks Schreck was dirt cheap and not 120 munitions with 90 and 60 munitions AI upgrades to consider purchasing instead.
- Panzerschrecks back then did way more damage to infantry models (sniped them).
- Panzerschreck hits on vehicles back then skyrocketed veterancy for infantry.
- Volks Schrecks were not in a doctrine that had other viable munitions abilities.


Besides both having Panzerschrecks, the current Panzerfusiliers are by no means comparable to the old Schreck Volksgrenadiers.
22 Mar 2019, 16:31 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6225 | Subs: 1

Imo not sure why a commander like this need an AT infatry especially when the AT commander was rejected.

On the other hand I have no problem with AT grenade coming early and actually P.Faust should come with truck built not set up especially with OP WC and M3/flamer are.

As far as AT rifle-grenades goes imo minimum range should be removed.
22 Mar 2019, 16:33 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6225 | Subs: 1

As far AT weapon on P.F. goes if ahead I would suggest they get an upgrade that allows them to get 2 panzerfausts as weapons not snares with bazooka characteristics.

These weapons could have to option be put away similar to SP minesweeper.

One has to keep in mind that buff like these in P.F. will make JT allot harder to counter thou since it will have good support from AT infatry.

From a thematic point of view Panzer Fusiliers are more of reckon troops and double shreck feel rather odd on them.
22 Mar 2019, 17:20 PM
#28
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515



Because Volks back then were 235MP and 5 popcap.
Because Volks back then had insane veterancy.
Because the old 4x Volks Kar98K did way more AI damage than the current 3x Pfussie Kar98K.
Because OKW did not have anything else to spend munitions on, and now has multiple ammunition upgrades available.
Because Volks Schreck was dirt cheap and not 120 munitions with 90 and 60 munitions AI upgrades to consider purchasing instead.
Because Panzerschrecks back then did way more damage to infantry models (sniped them).
Because Panzerschreck hits on vehicles back then skyrocketed veterancy for infantry.
Because Volks Schrecks were not in a doctrine that had other viable munitions abilities.


Besides both having Panzerschrecks, they are not even remotely comparable to the old Schreck Volksgrenadiers.


Okay, thanks for the informative, albeit condescending, explanation.
22 Mar 2019, 17:55 PM
#29
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3154 | Subs: 1

Unsure how I feel about the 2x screck fusi blobs. There are certain allied AI tanks which have very respectable AI, but most of them aren't going to burst full 5 man squads in a single shot unless they're heavily clumped. I think lethality of tanks is too inconsistant to allow for 2x schreck 5 man squads. However, one could argue to not engage them with armor. I don't think that'd be a problem if every faction had tools for everything, but they don't.
22 Mar 2019, 18:28 PM
#30
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1897 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2019, 17:20 PMNosliw
Okay, thanks for the informative, albeit condescending, explanation.


Did not mean to. I've edited my post to remove that tone, hopefully.
22 Mar 2019, 19:09 PM
#31
avatar of Jackiebrown

Posts: 657

Change the Panzerfusilier 2 Shreck upgrade to 2 Panzerbuchse.
22 Mar 2019, 20:03 PM
#32
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6232 | Subs: 1



There is a large number of reasons that makes the current implementation different:
- Volks back then were 235MP and 5 popcap.
- Volks back then had insane veterancy.
- The old 4x Volks Kar98K did way more AI damage than the current 3x Pfussie Kar98K.
- OKW did not have anything else to spend munitions on, and now has multiple ammunition upgrades available.
- Volks Schreck was dirt cheap and not 120 munitions with 90 and 60 munitions AI upgrades to consider purchasing instead.
- Panzerschrecks back then did way more damage to infantry models (sniped them).
- Panzerschreck hits on vehicles back then skyrocketed veterancy for infantry.
- Volks Schrecks were not in a doctrine that had other viable munitions abilities.


Besides both having Panzerschrecks, the current Panzerfusiliers are by no means comparable to the old Schreck Volksgrenadiers.


While the base value is more expensive, remember that OKW used to had a resource penalty. So the single panzerschreck cost was equivalent to 120muni more or less (unless you used 3x bulletins to reduce it).

I'm just seeing that the best case is that they are viable at 1v1 but obnoxious on teamgames, specially 4v4. A mode which care less about finesse and more about raw sheer firepower.

At most, i'm cautious about the whole concept atm.
22 Mar 2019, 20:26 PM
#33
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 594

As a predominantly team game player, things like shrek blobs (of pgrens) are still common. I would not want to see a cheaper and more readily available version of them.

I wouldn't mind a tank-hunters tactics style upgrade to pfusiliers (with AT rifles), but at that point I'd just make it so you get tank hunter pfusiliers instead of normal ones that you can upgrade one way or the other.

I play OKW 10x more than I play wehr, but I wouldn't want that squad for how cheesy it can make things. I almost think it would be better to make an upgraded kit for sturmpioneers instead that 1) removes their ability to repair and get the hzard removal package (but they can still put mines and remove ones already identified) and gives them a 2nd shrek.

I think it's a bad move but hard to say without really testing it out. Thing is that getting organized 3v3s/4v4s of a test mod is hard to do, especially recurring ones to actually test things out properly.

I wonder if some show/exhibition games could be organized that forces players to use the new commanders?

I can mess around with a friend or play against AI (well, not really, since AI is busted in the mod) but it's not quite the same as a full-scale game.

Oh well.
23 Mar 2019, 00:55 AM
#34
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

Mod team seems to be fully on board with the idea that any AI lategame iteration of Panzerfus must be a 6 men squad, and now we get a 5 men shreck squad.

Why exactly messing up with overcomplicated stuff like that ?

IMHO: Panzerfusiliers
From 6 to 5
280 mp, 28 to reinforce.
Target size adjusted accordingly to retain same squad durability.
Rifles buffed.
After Tier 1, can buy 2 beefed up STG with similar dps to bar for 120 muni.
The upgrade has no sight bonus, the only sight bonus come from veterancy.
23 Mar 2019, 02:04 AM
#35
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1633

I support vipper argument about Pfusies. As they are more a recon ai troop. But the amount of people going nuts about a possible pfusiessrekblob is too damn high.
Many dont even have an agument, neither stated that now early cqc troops are the meta.

hanheld AT sounds great for OKM because currently in the faction that is a luxury. Maybe if sturms get another shreck intead of pfusies, that would fix all the discussion
23 Mar 2019, 07:56 AM
#36
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 525



I wonder if some show/exhibition games could be organized that forces players to use the new commanders?

Oh well.


+1

My suggestion:
The final 4 teams of the 4vs4 bloodbath tournament should play their half final series again but have to use the new commmanders.
23 Mar 2019, 09:00 AM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6225 | Subs: 1

OKW - Grand Offensive from a design point of view.

Panzerfusilliers
Imo the best implemented doctrinal infatry, because it combines being built from a building and weapon scaling follows mainlines infantries.

The JUNE 21st BALANCE UPDATE made units spawn from buildings and not off map and the current CP 0 call-in are bypassing that mechanism. Imo the current implantation of CP 0 call-ins with some starting on cool down and other not should become more consistent by following PF and moved to HQ as build-able units.

The weapon upgrades locked behind tech is also the way to go since it does not mess with the timing of these weapons.

Stuka smoke Drop/Tactical movement

This combination is a bit problematic since it can be used to easily bypass enemy defenses even base hmg nests.

In addition the combination of PF sprint and tactical movement is ridiculous. Actually passive sprint should be removed from all units including USF officers. It could however become a timed ability.

OKW Offensive Package

The offensive Package is completely UP ability and imo simply introduced to "fix" OKW MP-40. That is a step in the wrong direction since those fixes should be done in balance patches and not commander patches.

Since the commander is designed replace the VG with PF adding a "buff" to VG is bad design wise.

In addition the ability is simply UP compared to PPsh upgrade and one should bring these abilities in line.

PPsh provides 3 weapons allow the units decent performance at all ranges while having good DPS once one closes in. Imo their should be consistency here either be having 3 MP-40 for VG or 6 PPsh for Conscripts.

PPsh leaves the Conscript weapon slot open (and now they can equip 3 Ppsh+3 SVTS) MP-40 take up all weapon slots.

In addition the PPsh gives access to "hit the ground" making more useful. (imo hit the ground should become conscripts vet 1 ability and then ourah could replace it with the PPsh upgrade).

The MP-40 on the other hand provides smoke grenades which is good but replaces the incendiary grenades with grenades which is actually a nerf. (imo the MP-40 should replace the ST44 upgrade that could become doctrinal and frag grenades should replace incendiary that could become doctrinal or available to SP from vet 0).

But once more a "buff" to VG has no place is a commander with P.F.

OKW Tiger
From a design point of view imo the Tiger has no place in a commander that provides the faction with a superior mainline infatry. Super heavy tanks and superior infantry should simply not be in the same commanders.

That is especially more important in OKW that with commander can stop their tech in T1, T2 and then fight until they can call the all-around Tiger.

23 Mar 2019, 09:22 AM
#38
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 525

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2019, 09:00 AMVipper
OKW - Grand Offensive from a design point of view.


OKW Offensive Package

The offensive Package is completely UP ability and imo simply introduced to "fix" OKW MP-40. That is a step in the wrong direction since those fixes should be done in balance patches and not commander patches.

OKW Tiger
From a design point of view imo the Tiger has no place in a commander that provides the faction with a superior mainline infatry. Super heavy tanks and superior infantry should simply not be in the same commanders.

That is especially more important in OKW that with commander can stop their tech in T1, T2 and then fight until they can call the all-around Tiger.


1. You're completly wrong about the "Offensive Packages". There was NO reason for the mod team to include the ability in the doctrine only to "improve OKW Mp40" because the MP40 buff came via the reworked Assgrens. You can find that explanation even in the patch notes!
And please dont always come back with the same mantra - "Dont include abilities /units that need a rework"-... you could at least acknowledge that there are abilities /units that fit thematically AND need a rework. Thats the reason for why i want "Offensive Package" to be replaced with a reworked "Sector Arty".

2. There was a vote- you remember;)- and the community decided that the new OKW doctrine should get a Tiger I. You dont have to like it but we all should respect the decision. Yes, changes are needed but you can't take away such a huge unit after the vote.
And OKW can already combine elite infantry with a, all around tank: JLI with KT, Falls with KT, Obers with KT. Yes, these units are not available from the start but there in a lot of games OKW players replace Volks with these units.




23 Mar 2019, 09:34 AM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13662 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2019, 09:00 AMVipper

OKW Tiger
From a design point of view imo the Tiger has no place in a commander that provides the faction with a superior mainline infatry. Super heavy tanks and superior infantry should simply not be in the same commanders.

You keep repeating that like a holy mantra.
You a Relic developer? Or do you actually work as a game designer?
No?
Then sorry to burst your bubble, but its not "design point of view", its "Vippers point of view" and as much as you try to make them the same, they are not, were not and never will be the same, so use the correct one.

That is especially more important in OKW that with commander can stop their tech in T1, T2 and then fight until they can call the all-around Tiger.

Oh like they already do with Command Panther for YEARS? Its AI may not be the greatest, but it doesn't have to be with how strong voks are, it serves the exact same role regular heavies do in "wait on lights for call-in heavy" strats.

That's absolutely nothing new for OKW.

There is also nothing wrong with elite infantry and heavy armor call-ins, these doctrines may be preferred, but they don't automatically make other doctrines bad in any way. Less appealing, sure, but certainly not bad, especially after we've got couple of doctrinal reworks.
23 Mar 2019, 09:46 AM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6225 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2019, 09:34 AMKatitof

You keep repeating that like a holy mantra.
You a Relic developer? Or do you actually work as a game designer?
No?
Then sorry to burst your bubble, but its not "design point of view", its "Vippers point of view" and as much as you try to make them the same, they are not, were not and never will be the same, so use the correct one.
...

Let me help you with you reading comprehension because you are simply putting words in my mouth.

I did not write from a "designers points of view" but from a "design point of view".

That means that my comments do not have to with balance of units/commander but with design of the commander but certainly it does not mean that I consider myself a "game designer"

In addition let me explain something else to you, Imo means "in my opinion" and I have used in my post, while you never do.

The only one with delusions of grandeur here is you, that keep insulting others and try to prove that everyone else is biased when you are biased yourself.

Have nice day.
Be bye.
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