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The dark truth about 4v4.

7 Dec 2018, 10:37 AM
#1
avatar of Harry

Posts: 61

It has been 4 years since I started to play this game. And every time they just patch so a little in terms of balancing the 4v4 game mode. 4v4 need some love. Are they going to make the 4v4 balance or not? I am really sick of the 25-min marker.


To be honest, I was not expecting this post could be this popular.....

If you guys have any questions about the post, please go to page two and read comments #33, 34, 35, and 37.

And I do personally appreciate everyone who posts a comment here. At least it makes me know that there are people out there who cares about 4v4.
7 Dec 2018, 10:54 AM
#2
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 2

I disagree. Over these years they've removed lots of bullshit that was plaguing large game modes.

Almost every patch affects 4v4 and there were patches that aim specifically at 4v4 without affecting 1v1 much. A good example would be patch where they nerfed damage of JT/Ele.

EDIT: About "make 4v4 balanced" - it can't be balanced due to
a) It's chaotic nature
b) Number of possible map/faction/spawnpoint combinations

The best they can do is to continue removing bullshit such as volksschrek blobs, B-4 precise shot + For Mother Russia, "fuel starved" OKW + fuel caches and so on. And I should say that they are doing good job so far. Slowly but steadily.
7 Dec 2018, 11:37 AM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13676 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2018, 10:37 AMHarry
It has been 4 years since I started to play this game. And every time they just patch so a little in terms of balancing the 4v4 game mode. 4v4 need some love. Are they going to make the 4v4 balance or not? I am really sick of the 25-min marker.

A non competitive game mode will never get balance focus, too many players and too many combinations/factors in play there to even consider balancing it and there were were multiple changes that did help in team games, like a nerf to super heabies.
7 Dec 2018, 12:17 PM
#4
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 170

It isn't that bad sure they might be issues with some starting positions where you should rush certain positions where WFA factions usually have a better time, there are highly coordinated teams that might play against way lower ranked single players, there probably will always be maps where forward retreat points are easy to abuse (WFA factions again) on the other hand some maps are pretty open and facour sniper play and light vehicles EFA factions and brits profit from that the most.

In case you mean that there are huge imbalances between axis and allies and the game turns unwinable as either side after a certain mark (25min) you should maybe try to improve your own playing as it is certainly not.

I mostly play 3v3 both with randoms and a team and 4v4 from time to time in teams as i prefer the 3v3 mappool and dynamic gameplay compared to clustered chokepoints and even worse artillerypartys.

Incase you have troubles playing as allies which quite often is the case with people that complain about imbalanced teamplayer modes you could watch this replay of a game that lasts way longer then the 25 minute mark:
https://www.coh2.org/replay/83335/80-min-slugfest-on-la-gleize
or you are welcome to upload a replay (or even more) of your own, contact me and i will watch them and might give you some hints where you did mistakes and how to improve.
7 Dec 2018, 12:20 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6263 | Subs: 1

I am not sure one will be able to balance both 1vs1 and 4vs4 using the same system.

One would probably have to make adjustments to the economy and CP or even to units across the different mods.
7 Dec 2018, 12:24 PM
#6
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4819 | Subs: 14

The decemberpatch 2017 was focused on 4vs4.
But yes most changes are for 1vs1, tho are good in 2vs2-4vs4 too.

Jackson buff, ele and JT nerf in past
now brumbär and flamerhft and t70 nerf.
so this is for 4vs4 as well :)
7 Dec 2018, 14:29 PM
#7
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779

The decemberpatch 2017 was focused on 4vs4.
But yes most changes are for 1vs1, tho are good in 2vs2-4vs4 too.

Jackson buff, ele and JT nerf in past
now brumbär and flamerhft and t70 nerf.
so this is for 4vs4 as well :)


Next would be a new range-conformation, that would help 3vs3 and 4vs4 most.

Nerfing heavy-tank-hunters a little bit, give all fraction a 55-range tankhunter to put the focus on stock-units.

Maybe a Vet-range-upgade for Panther from 50 to 55 with Vet2 like Tiger.

↓ -longrange tankhunter 75-65 range (Jagdtiger, Elefant, ISU-152)
x -PaKs 60 range
x -Tanhunter without turret 60 range (SU85, Jagdpanzer4)
↓ -Tankhunter with turret 55 range (Panther, Jackson, Firefly)
x -Assault-guns 55-50 (SU76, StuG G)

Maybe a limit on call-in and community artillery?
e.g. onlay 2 * leFH at same time.


7 Dec 2018, 15:33 PM
#8
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1256

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2018, 10:37 AMHarry
It has been 4 years since I started to play this game. And every time they just patch so a little in terms of balancing the 4v4 game mode. 4v4 need some love. Are they going to make the 4v4 balance or not? I am really sick of the 25-min marker.


Sorry, but don't really agree. The balance in 4v4 doesn't seem that bad, with late game maybe a tiny bit tilted to Axis but not so bad that I would complain. The biggest difference is that late-game Allies seem to need a little better coordination, which isn't a problem when playing with friends and using Vent or Discord but is a problem when playing with randoms.
7 Dec 2018, 15:42 PM
#9
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 797

Game is great in team games, wth you talking about? You probably want the "good" old days of multiple heavies and arty fest sprinkled with skillplanes.

Best thing that ever happened to coh was limit heavies and make them high pop cost meaning that mediums can have their places in late game.
7 Dec 2018, 15:58 PM
#10
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 752 | Subs: 3


A non competitive game mode will never get balance focus, too many players and too many combinations/factors in play there to even consider balancing it and there were were multiple changes that did help in team games, like a nerf to super heabies.


Bonoboboi Katitof, 4v4 had a lot of Teams and Clans who played it rather competitively, then with some patch of mid 2k15 they all disappeared because 4v4 was broken for Axis.
7 Dec 2018, 16:52 PM
#11
avatar of Antaria

Posts: 68

It's actually more interesting and fun since the patch focused on 4v4 came out. The problem is that it is very stale in terms of ideas and competition.

Because of the varied skill levels in random 4v4, more often than not, you'll see straight forward meta builds or absolute question marks. Nowadays it's quite rare to see a high level 4v4 team game going on because 1. the queue is long 2. the game will most likely be a stomp unless you do extremely unconventional builds.

I think there's a lot of potential and unique strategies that can be discovered and made to work, especially with this December patch coming. c.B and I theorycrafted about 5 different strategies for the 4v4 tournaments we joined, like the EZ8s, Industry, Royal Arty, Tank Hunter during the Heavy TD meta, and Luftwaffe Supply against FHQs/Emplacements. No one else did anything similar, and the stream chat was very critical of our choices, almost as if to say that if we don't play meta, we will just lose(we didn't). If anything, creativity thrives in 4v4 the most because of how much you can get away with, it's just unfortunate that the playerbase is too small to bring out the creativity on a non-tourney basis.
7 Dec 2018, 17:23 PM
#12
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691

I was expecting some kind of alien conspiracy theory about 4v4 with that tittle lol <444>_<444>
7 Dec 2018, 17:24 PM
#13
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1915 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2018, 12:20 PMVipper
I am not sure one will be able to balance both 1vs1 and 4vs4 using the same system.


Multi-mode balance is fine for some units (like Panzer IV) but pretty broken for others (like British emplacements). A couple of units are fine on their own in all modes (Panther or TDs) but become problematically good when they can be spammed or blobbed. But I don't think it would ever be possible to have seperate balance without having either a very complicated and confusing system or making the modes much more similar (which would either require very small 1v1 maps or very large 4v4s).

That being said, 4v4 right now seems to be more balanced than it has ever been IMO. There are some issues like OKW not having caches (thankfully 223 will become available) and arty spam but generally speaking I really enjoy the chaotic and tense matches.
7 Dec 2018, 17:46 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6263 | Subs: 1



Multi-mode balance is fine for some units (like Panzer IV) but pretty broken for others (like British emplacements). A couple of units are fine on their own in all modes (Panther or TDs) but become problematically good when they can be spammed or blobbed. But I don't think it would ever be possible to have seperate balance without having either a very complicated and confusing system or making the modes much more similar (which would either require very small 1v1 maps or very large 4v4s).

That being said, 4v4 right now seems to be more balanced than it has ever been IMO. There are some issues like OKW not having caches (thankfully 223 will become available) and arty spam but generally speaking I really enjoy the chaotic and tense matches.

The problem start from the different economies and CP speed across the mods and by the fact that shock units do not work vs multiple opponents.

By making the economies more similar and CP gain, one can bring the mods allot closer.
7 Dec 2018, 18:36 PM
#15
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 170

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2018, 17:46 PMVipper

The problem start from the different economies and CP speed across the mods and by the fact that shock units do not work vs multiple opponents.

By making the economies more similar and CP gain, one can bring the mods allot closer.


Shock units do work wonders. They might be harder play and easier to counter but if you can push just a bit farther then your half of map: you and your team will get alot of ressources and way more value as you can push on more fronts with your fuel or ammunition advantage.
7 Dec 2018, 19:15 PM
#16
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 961 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Dec 2018, 17:46 PMVipper

The problem start from the different economies and CP speed across the mods and by the fact that shock units do not work vs multiple opponents.

By making the economies more similar and CP gain, one can bring the mods allot closer.


Yeah I think there was an old discussion about making the larger 4v4 maps have the same number of resource points as 1v1/2v2 and just make their zones larger to compensate for the high amount of players. The biggest issue in 4v4 is that the mid-game goes very quickly and t3/t4 rushes are the best bet because of the resource gain.
7 Dec 2018, 19:21 PM
#17
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1649 | Subs: 1

If you lose in teamgames your team was worse than the other team.
7 Dec 2018, 19:45 PM
#18
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1256

If you lose in teamgames your team was worse than the other team.


LOL - trolling and truth all in one short post
7 Dec 2018, 20:06 PM
#19
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 885 | Subs: 2

The Dark Truth about 4v4 is....

It is the funnest game mode :romeoMug:
7 Dec 2018, 20:47 PM
#20
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2117 | Subs: 16

Relic dont care about this game mode.

The map list is the same for years.

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