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Conscripts need to be cheaper

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5 Dec 2018, 01:16 AM
#1
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 1362 | Subs: 1

Hi all, going to get right after it:
As the title says, cons need to be cheaper and here is why I think so...

To start, they are shit tier infantry with no stock weapon upgrade. They get very very durable at vet 3 (too durable) but until then they are fodder. A unit should require full vet to begin to function. Additionally, other units ALSO get more durable but also get the ability to increase damage output, which sort of offsets enemy durability buffs--cons get no weapons so while they become durable, they don't pack more punch meaning their own durability is lessened but enemies are not.

Secondly, manpower costs in general for the Soviet lineup, namely teching. Cons cost the same as grens and slightly less than volks but are shit on by them hard. To get grens an Ost player needs to shell out 80mp and 10 fuel, this also unlocks fausts, snipers and mortars. The same cost will grant cons only molitovs. To get supporting units the Soviet must shell out double that manpower. What this means is that if the Soviet builds a tech they are a neat loss for manpower compared to their opponent. Okw can be pumping out combat ready units with no delay, and Soviet can't even match them with chaff AND tech up.

Some say "but oorah" or "but utility" and ignore the fact that orrah, while a great ability, is a further extra cost into trying to make conscripts work, something nobody else has to worry about. In addition it received a price increase recently making it less accessible. As for utility... Sand bags are great, and something every other faction can also do (ecxmmxcept usf) hardly worth making the unit garbage over,and it certainly doesn't hold volks back.

An obvious concern about cheaper conscripts would be the PPSH ability but I don't think that the risk of a doctrinal ability should warrant a stock unit being kept sub par, so my solution for that would simply be to create a new call in (or built in t0), assault conscripts squad that would have different vet and a different cost to standard conscripts.

Basicly at the end of the day, cons require massive investment to reach their cap, which is already lower than their counterparts. One shouldn't have to invest more for less. This is compounded by other elements of Soviet tech (160mp off the cuff to unlock something to replace conscripts) and their side techs don't go far into making an already garbage unit slightly less garbage.

I would suggest a 220mp price point to better reflect their performance and required extra-tech investments as well as their reliance on munitions to function.
A point could be made for 210mp even, given how much better conscripts ostroppen are than conscripts (with a tech included snare and a weapon upgrade no less) but 220mp would be a reasonable start.
5 Dec 2018, 02:20 AM
#2
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 119

Conscripts should definitely be cheaper.
5 Dec 2018, 07:21 AM
#3
avatar of MakiesKurisu

Posts: 78

...I'm afraid of that no inf have better cost efficiency than volks. So if compared with volks all inf may get a price reduction.
Considering about grens, cons are just fine.

Edit:As for OKW, remove it's extra starting mp for SWS truck and making SWS cost no mp but fuel only may slightly nerf its strong start and help its late game.
5 Dec 2018, 07:30 AM
#4
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 32

Your logic in solid, i agree that cons need to be cheaper. 210 is their actual worth imo.


We could also put the ppsh as side tech wich you unlock with 4 times 30mp =120 (the difference you safe for making cons cheaper) a small feul price of 20 is also good. the cp requirements and muni cost can stay the same.

Thought anyone?
5 Dec 2018, 07:36 AM
#5
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 1362 | Subs: 1

Your logic in solid, i agree that cons need to be cheaper. 210 is their actual worth imo.


We could also put the ppsh as side tech wich you unlock with 4 times 30mp =120 (the difference you safe for making cons cheaper) a small feul price of 20 is also good. the cp requirements and muni cost can stay the same.

Thought anyone?

Assuming they get a cost reduction their Ludacris vet 3 would need toned down as well. Assuming that's the case it here can probably be a way to keep the PPSH an upgrade in some manner. A small side addition to MP could certainly be the answer to keeping it from being too cost efficient
5 Dec 2018, 07:37 AM
#6
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 558

Banned
No. Volks just needs to be somehow less good. Then slightly nerf bars.
5 Dec 2018, 07:47 AM
#7
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 119

Conscripts should be the cheapest and most cost efficient as they have no upgrades non-doctrinal.
5 Dec 2018, 08:08 AM
#8
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 115

No. Volks just needs to be somehow less good. Then slightly nerf bars.


I personally think volks arent too strong now, as their vet got nerfed. Only things i think is required with them is to figure out way to get early garrison clearing instead of flamenade (i personally think 3 man flamethrower squad would be useful addition for that) and make stgs more dependent of range, being either like ppsh like cqc weapons or more like bars, rather than just universal damage buff to all ranges without need for positioning.
5 Dec 2018, 08:32 AM
#9
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 32


Assuming they get a cost reduction their Ludacris vet 3 would need toned down as well. Assuming that's the case it here can probably be a way to keep the PPSH an upgrade in some manner. A small side addition to MP could certainly be the answer to keeping it from being too cost efficient


Even without ppsh,s cons need to be closer then all other main lines to do their bit. Their ludicrus vet 3 rec acc is quite neccecary to do their job a this time.
Before it was .61 or .64 i believe right now its about .70 most other main lines end up around .8 or .85 recc acc, please correct me if i am wrong about this.

If the difference is as i think it is we should not nerf their rec acc to much.
5 Dec 2018, 08:51 AM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 3535 | Subs: 1



Even without ppsh,s cons need to be closer then all other main lines to do their bit. Their ludicrus vet 3 rec acc is quite neccecary to do their job a this time.
Before it was .61 or .64 i believe right now its about .70 most other main lines end up around .8 or .85 recc acc, please correct me if i am wrong about this.

If the difference is as i think it is we should not nerf their rec acc to much.

Conscript get some of the highest vet bonuses compared to other infantry both offensively and defensively.
5 Dec 2018, 09:03 AM
#11
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 763 | Subs: 1

Cons get high vet bonuses because they need atleast some semblance of scaling into late game or else they would get slaughtered by Volks and Grens more than they already do. They also dont have weapon upgrades and start with a mediocre at best mosin.
5 Dec 2018, 09:03 AM
#12
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 119

Conscripts are insanely good with vet, they just need to be cheaper. Volks squads are good, OKW just suffers with mg spam and garrisons as the LEIG sucks.
5 Dec 2018, 09:09 AM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 3535 | Subs: 1

Actually I would rather see other infantries nerfed instead of buffing conscripts.

Imo the buffing circles have lasted too long making faction like USF and UKF feel weak.

I could add some reinforcement cost reduction with vet, replacing some of the other vet bonuses.

PPsh conscripts need a nerf, and I would start by removing hit the ground. These abilities simply do not mix together.
5 Dec 2018, 09:45 AM
#14
avatar of JZuna

Posts: 120

I think cons are fine by themselves maybe a small cost reduction on the at nade upgrade its 125 mp 25 fuel make the same cost as molotov, this high fuel cost makes t1 opening way more appealing as you dont need to spend extra fuel for satchel or AT satchel you can tech to t2 for at guns if you are behind and its cheaper fuel wise cons upgrades.

If I was to buff conscripts I would go for a utility buff on the merge ability make it actually good to merge cons with elite inf like shocks and guards simply make the models that merge receive the same stats as the elite inf they merging with.

This might be too strong as you could skip reinforcement cost of elite inf and they would return to the field way sooner than they should, if a merge buff proves to be op then a simple cost reduction on cons and at nade should be enough.
5 Dec 2018, 09:58 AM
#15
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 119

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2018, 09:09 AMVipper
Actually I would rather see other infantries nerfed instead of buffing conscripts.

Imo the buffing circles have lasted too long making faction like USF and UKF feel weak.

I could add some reinforcement cost reduction with vet, replacing some of the other vet bonuses.

PPsh conscripts need a nerf, and I would start by removing hit the ground. These abilities simply do not mix together.


Hit the ground should go on regular cons, and they should lose it if they upgrade to ppsh
5 Dec 2018, 10:30 AM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 3535 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2018, 09:58 AMNaOCl


Hit the ground should go on regular cons, and they should lose it if they upgrade to ppsh

Well my suggestion for soviet was:
Conscript become a defensive infantry, they lose ourah and merge, swap molotov with a frag grenade and gain more range in their AT grenade. Hit the dirt become their ability (or vet 1 ability) and it scales with veterancy.

Penal become the offensive infantry, they become cheap get ourah (maybe a vet 1 ability that scales with veterancy), molotov and PPsh (total DPS around pioneer level).

And that way there is room for both units as core infantry.
5 Dec 2018, 10:38 AM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 11228 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2018, 10:30 AMVipper

Well my suggestion for soviet was:
Conscript become a defensive infantry, they lose ourah and merge, swap molotov with a frag grenade and gain more range in their AT grenade. Hit the dirt become their ability (or vet 1 ability) and it scales with veterancy.

Penal become the offensive infantry, they become cheap get ourah (maybe a vet 1 ability that scales with veterancy), molotov and PPsh (total DPS around pioneer level).

And that way there is room for both units as core infantry.

I hope you do realize that you can't have defensive infantry that isn't capable of long range firepower.
5 Dec 2018, 10:43 AM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 3535 | Subs: 1


I hope you do realize that you can't have defensive infantry that isn't capable of long range firepower.

yes you can if it has an ability that gives it damage reduction like hit the ground or/and when you use another infantry to attack like suggested penal or/and it fi support it with maxim/moratrs.

Have a nice day.
5 Dec 2018, 13:44 PM
#19
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 1362 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2018, 10:43 AMVipper

yes you can if it has an ability that gives it damage reduction like hit the ground or/and when you use another infantry to attack like suggested penal or/and it fi support it with maxim/moratrs.

Have a nice day.

I think what he means is they are just bodies if they don't have any teeth. Which they don't. They can't defend if they are not a threat to the infantry that are attacking and I agree with that.
5 Dec 2018, 13:51 PM
#20
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1527 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2018, 10:30 AMVipper

Well my suggestion for soviet was:
Conscript become a defensive infantry, they lose ourah and merge, swap molotov with a frag grenade and gain more range in their AT grenade. Hit the dirt become their ability (or vet 1 ability) and it scales with veterancy.

Penal become the offensive infantry, they become cheap get ourah (maybe a vet 1 ability that scales with veterancy), molotov and PPsh (total DPS around pioneer level).

And that way there is room for both units as core infantry.

This won't work.

I will ignore your "defensive" infantry and will focus-fire your "offensive" glass canons.
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