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Conscripts need to be cheaper

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jagd wölfe
6 Dec 2018, 19:39 PM
#61
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 19:30 PMWiderstreit


Sure, they are. But with the STG44 upgrade (sure other stats as Sturmpio) they become something else. Why an upgrade if you can replace them with Sturmpios and Obersoldaten? I don't see the reason for the upgrade.

With Commander Volks can get a MP40 upgrade. Can be replaced by Sturmpios and Obersoldaten or call-ins.

So why the STG44 upgrade? Only because of blobbing?



They don't become anything else, they still benefit the most from staying at long range, and is how they should be used.

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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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TheGentlemenTroll
6 Dec 2018, 19:42 PM
#62
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 19:30 PMWiderstreit


Sure, they are. But with the STG44 upgrade (sure other stats as Sturmpio) they become something else. Why an upgrade if you can replace them with Sturmpios and Obersoldaten? I don't see the reason for the upgrade.

With Commander Volks can get a MP40 upgrade. Can be replaced by Sturmpios and Obersoldaten or call-ins.

So why the STG44 upgrade? Only because of blobbing?




The STG44 on volks is a steroid buff at all ranges, so its still ideal to keep volks at mid-long range. Only exception might be Tommies.
bg /l
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jagd wölfe
6 Dec 2018, 19:53 PM
#63
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 19:42 PMTheGentlemenTroll


The STG44 on volks is a steroid buff at all ranges, so its still ideal to keep volks at mid-long range. Only exception might be Tommies.

Indeed
Which is something several people complain about, but actually means nothing.

Mg42 is a buff at all ranges
G42 is a buff at all ranges
Dp28 is a buff at all ranges
.....

The "iTsAnOBRaiNer" bullshit again and again

Any of you guys complaining about "no brainer" upgrade ...point me a single upgrade that isn't a no brainer
How many times did you avoid mg42 as grens if you didn't have a g43 doctrine ?
How many times did you avoid cons ppsh because of the long range dps downgrade except that ppsh cons are simply ten times more efficient anyway ?
How many times did you decide to not upgrade brens or bars if you had ammo racks ?

Every single upgrade except handheld at is a no brainer, unless there's two of them.
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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Domine
6 Dec 2018, 19:53 PM
#64
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2018, 18:13 PMCyra
Aren't volksgrendiers literally translate to Civilian Soldiers and if I remember history right, Volks should be on par of Conscripts since thats what they were historically.




CIVILIAN SOLDIERS


Now I've read fucking everything on these forums
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TheGentlemenTroll
6 Dec 2018, 20:03 PM
#65
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 19:53 PMjagd wölfe

Indeed
Which is something several people complain about, but actually means nothing.

Mg42 is a buff at all ranges
G42 is a buff at all ranges
Dp28 is a buff at all ranges
.....

The "iTsAnOBRaiNer" bullshit again and again

Any of you guys complaining about "no brainer" upgrade ...point me a single upgrade that isn't a no brainer
How many times did you avoid mg42 as grens if you didn't have a g43 doctrine ?
How many times did you avoid cons ppsh because of the long range dps downgrade except that ppsh cons are simply ten times more efficient anyway ?
How many times did you decide to not upgrade brens or bars if you had ammo racks ?

Every single upgrade except handheld at is a no brainer, unless there's two of them.



I don't think I was complaining about the STG44, I dont really have an issue with it minus the fact it confuses some players on the effective ranges the upgrade causes. IE a lot of people think the STG upgrade is just a mid to close range buff but in reality its a buff to all ranges.

I'd prefer it be more clear to less experienced players. Other than that I find STGs fine.
bg /l
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jagd wölfe
6 Dec 2018, 20:12 PM
#66
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 20:03 PMTheGentlemenTroll



I don't think I was complaining about the STG44, I dont really have an issue with it minus the fact it confuses some players on the effective ranges the upgrade causes. IE a lot of people think the STG upgrade is just a mid to close range buff but in reality its a buff to all ranges.

I'd prefer it be more clear to less experienced players. Other than that I find STGs fine.

Wasn't referring to you.
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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thedarkarmadillo
6 Dec 2018, 20:40 PM
#67
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 19:53 PMDomine




CIVILIAN SOLDIERS


Now I've read fucking everything on these forums


How would you describe a militia? Because they mixed up VOLKSgrendier with VOLKSsturm. Completely unacceptable and totally unreasonable to mix up VOLKS with VOLKS. MADNESS I SAY.
#stalinwept
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jagd wölfe
6 Dec 2018, 22:17 PM
#68
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 20:40 PMthedarkarmadillo


How would you describe a militia? Because they mixed up VOLKSgrendier with VOLKSsturm. Completely unacceptable and totally unreasonable to mix up VOLKS with VOLKS. MADNESS I SAY.

"Volksgrenadier was the name given to a type of German Army division formed in the Autumn of 1944 after the double loss of Army Group Center to the Soviets in Operation Bagration and the Fifth Panzer Army to the Allies in Normandy. The name itself was intended to build morale, appealing at once to nationalism (Volk) and Germany's older military traditions (Grenadier). Germany formed 78 VGDs during the war. Volksgrenadier divisions were professional military formations with effective weapons and equipment, unlike the unrelated Volkssturm militia."

Can we put an end to the semantic debate here ?
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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murky depths
6 Dec 2018, 22:22 PM
#69
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From that same article, 2 more paragraphs below.

"They were organized around small cadres of hardened veteran soldiers, NCOs and officers, and then bulked out with anything the Replacement Army could supply: "jobless" personnel of the shrinking Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe, wounded soldiers from broken formations returning to duty from hospitals, older men who would have been considered too old or too unfit for the peacetime army and teenagers were recruited into the ranks."

Not that I'd necessarily quote wikipeda as my go to source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksgrenadier
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Widerstreit
6 Dec 2018, 22:32 PM
#70
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 19:42 PMTheGentlemenTroll


The STG44 on volks is a steroid buff at all ranges, so its still ideal to keep volks at mid-long range. Only exception might be Tommies.


G43 instead of STG44 would be more logical as blueprint for a allrounder-buff.

Panzerfüsiliere could get something else. :P

Edit:
Volksgrenadiere were regular Infantry. Until 1942 german infantry was called Schützen and Oberschützen. Later Schützen were renamed into Grenadiere. Late 1944 Volksgrenadiere were a mixed troup of regular Grenadiere and reserve-units. 1945 also Volkssturm-soldiers were put into the Volksgrenadier-units.
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thedarkarmadillo
6 Dec 2018, 22:35 PM
#71
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 22:17 PMjagd wölfe

"Volksgrenadier was the name given to a type of German Army division formed in the Autumn of 1944 after the double loss of Army Group Center to the Soviets in Operation Bagration and the Fifth Panzer Army to the Allies in Normandy. The name itself was intended to build morale, appealing at once to nationalism (Volk) and Germany's older military traditions (Grenadier). Germany formed 78 VGDs during the war. Volksgrenadier divisions were professional military formations with effective weapons and equipment, unlike the unrelated Volkssturm militia."

Can we put an end to the semantic debate here ?
#stalinwept
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Widerstreit
6 Dec 2018, 22:42 PM
#72
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Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 22:35 PMthedarkarmadillo
...


Also Grenadiere got the name for the moral.

Until 1942 German regular infantry-units were called Schützen und Oberschützen. Later renamed into Grenadiere and Panzergrenadiere.

Later some units were renamed into Volksgrenadiere.

And Volkssturm was only the name for kids and olds. So later also Volksturmunits were part of Volkgrenadiere.
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jagd wölfe
6 Dec 2018, 22:52 PM
#73
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 22:22 PMmurky depths
From that same article, 2 more paragraphs below.

"They were organized around small cadres of hardened veteran soldiers, NCOs and officers, and then bulked out with anything the Replacement Army could supply: "jobless" personnel of the shrinking Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe, wounded soldiers from broken formations returning to duty from hospitals, older men who would have been considered too old or too unfit for the peacetime army and teenagers were recruited into the ranks."

Not that I'd necessarily quote wikipeda as my go to source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksgrenadier


1) The difference being that "too young" men were 17 years old at worst and "too old" men were over the 50's while volkssturm was made out of old and children. (Check enlistment requirements)

2) Wounded soldiers from battle hardened divisions that returned from hospitals to duty---> what's wrong with that ? Is normal that soldiers that can fight again return to duty after being treated

3) "jobless" navy and air personnel received basic military training to begin with to become a pilot/sailor, and such practise was common among all armies (rear echelons)

Also the whole "Volksturm were put in volks division" is bullshit because a quick check of the order of battle and division organization can confirm that volksgrenadiers was under the command of the Heer while volkssturm was under the command of the NSDAP
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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murky depths
6 Dec 2018, 22:55 PM
#74
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Posts: 607

I didn't say otherwise, just found it humorous that you wanted to end the semantics but selectively quote things without sharing a source.

Though as I mentioned above, I wouldn't rely on wikipedia for things that can be... contentious.
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Widerstreit
6 Dec 2018, 23:11 PM
#75
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 22:52 PMjagd wölfe

Also the whole "Volksturm were put in volks division" is bullshit because a quick check of the order of battle and division organization can confirm that volksgrenadiers was under the command of the Heer while volkssturm was under the command of the NSDAP


We are speaking of last war-weeks until battle of Berlin etc. and back there Volkstum-units were sometimes also part of regular Volksgrenadier-battalions. They also fought with SS units.

Also Standschützenbataillone and Freikorps were part of the Volkssturm.

Edit: They wern't regular units, but sometimes they fought under the order of normal Heeresleitung.

I think you are German? Breslau wurde bis in den Mai 1945 hinein durch Volksturm und Wehrmachtverbänden verteidigt.
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Jae For Jett
6 Dec 2018, 23:37 PM
#76
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 22:32 PMWiderstreit

Panzerfüsiliere could get something else.

Like? Ptrs and schrecks wouldnt work. Lmgs would probably make them a go-to option, and create overlap with obers.

People always say "why didnt they do X," then waive off all of the problems this change to X creates for Y by saying "then Y can be changed," or ignoring Y entirely. You can end your suggestion at "well they can be changed," and not care about whether there even is a change available. But the people responsible for the changes have to come up with that change, and then deal with the issues that arise from that change, and the issues that previous change causes, and so on.
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Widerstreit
6 Dec 2018, 23:42 PM
#77
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 23:37 PMJae For Jett

Like? Ptrs and schrecks wouldnt work. Lmgs would probably make them a go-to option, and create overlap with obers.


It is about the logic behind the dps-increase.

E.g.:
-Obersoldaten can get also a LMG42 and only they get the better Version (like soviet guards get better PTRS)
-Then there is the blueprint of LMG34 that can be a new weapon.

That was something I wrote last patch too. Because that Osttruppen get LMG42 is also Kind of confusing.
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thedarkarmadillo
6 Dec 2018, 23:44 PM
#78
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My point was that it's an easy mistake for someone not completely versed in history to mix up volkssturm and volksgrenadiers.

And regardless on which suffixed volks unit we are dealing with they are over performing for cost creating balancing issues.

But at any rate this is about cons. Cons vs grens has generally been the gold standard for infanty match ups, that has had to be altered because of volks which has lead to over buffed penals which has further led to the disuse of cons. A price reduction is the easiest way I can see to make cons attractive without creating a massive upset in balance. Even at 20mp cheaper than grens they would still lose when the weapon upgrades hit as they do now, so they won't be punching a over their weight by any means yet they allow instead for slightly better map control and make replacing them a lightly less damaging (keeping in mind they have 0 ways to boost performance to make up for lost vet unlike all other mainline without certain doctrines)

And again, if 220mp ppsh infantry is too effecient we can introduce them as their own t0 unit or adjust the price of the upgrade accordingly.
#stalinwept
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Widerstreit
6 Dec 2018, 23:46 PM
#79
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 23:44 PMthedarkarmadillo
...


Could be a solution. Because also merge will become better.


But... so also Ostheer Pios get cheaper or get a buff? 180mp and weapon range buff??
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thedarkarmadillo
6 Dec 2018, 23:51 PM
#80
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Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2018, 23:46 PMWiderstreit


Could be a solution. Because also merge will become better.


But... so also Ostheer Pios get cheaper or get a buff? 180mp and weapon range buff??


I feel merge is underused anyways. Keeping in mind it will increase the target size of squads they merge into and the worst part about merge is that you could lose the whole squad if an extra model drops at an inopportune time. This makes it even more important that cons can be replaced cheaper as a bad model drop can erase your vet with no way to make it up, having to pay full price is just an insult when that happens...
Also
Why should they? Pios have a scouting ability they didn't get a price increase for and their MP40s are always a threat to weapon crew at the very least. Do you really think they are only worth 10mp more than combat engies?
#stalinwept
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