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Let's speak about OST AT mine

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29 Nov 2018, 11:16 AM
#101
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 11:13 AMThamor


You are replying to a flame ht 90 ammo then this topic is about 50 ammo vehicle mine and then you are adding a 100 ammo shrecks. Most here talking the effect of t70 and flame ht early game before first medium tanks start rolling to the field.

Yes you can get shrecks with pgren, but you can forget flame HT then or you can put tellers. It's always a choice with OST as it's so heavy in munitions use.

By the time T70 arrives, you can have both.
Just don't spam LMGs.
Ost doesn't have it any harder on muni front then brits, USF or even soviets nowadays(now that every single ability exvept for mine costs more and guards were always ammo hogs).

Yeah, you can't have it all in early game - no one except OKW can.

Point is, you DO have options for a follow up if the mine did 380 instead of 400. Even 222 can finish off T-70 like that.
29 Nov 2018, 12:33 PM
#102
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13479 | Subs: 1

A nerf to the tellar mine would mean that Ostheer light vehicle counter will further weakened.

That would would result into a further buff to Soviet who are already one of the strongest factions or some re-balancing of LV play, either toning down T-70 or making Puma stock for Ostheer.
29 Nov 2018, 13:37 PM
#103
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 10:34 AMVipper

"Spoil mines" describing getting a squad wipe from mines explosion is one way of putting it. So the issues that tellar are only trigger by vehicles?

Ok lets allow infantry to trigger tellars , but then pls do not complain about allied infantry being wiped out by mines.

What patch is your game at? Wsquad wipes with mines and all. You won't get a squad wipe unless you are roaming around with 2 model squads in which case..... Why?
As was said above the main reason for laying mimes is usually to stop marauding armour, not kill 2 models of a squad.
I have had fleeing weapon teams (as in killed all but the last model of an AT gun and he ran away) detonate Soviet mines, even a mine demo (and killing the engies) a good few times. I have never had that happen with a teller mine. The only thing that detonate a teller mine is what I planned the teller mine to detonate on. This is one of the reasons I prefer to use the m20 mines over rifleman mines- they detonate on what is a bigger threat and greatly boost the chance of REALLY setting back the enemy. This is one of the times that single purpose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multirole.
29 Nov 2018, 13:47 PM
#104
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 12:33 PMVipper
A nerf to the tellar mine would mean that Ostheer light vehicle counter will further weakened.

That would would result into a further buff to Soviet who are already one of the strongest factions or some re-balancing of LV play, either toning down T-70 or making Puma stock for Ostheer.


222 a pak40 faust shreck can all kill it, Litteraly anything that does more then tickle armour can kill a a light vehicle that is that heavely damaged.

Its time for ost and okw to face the fact that you reap what you sow. Now its the turn for the teller to get nerfed imo. I just hope it doesnt become irrelevant like the demo. The -20 damage will hardley make it usseles.
29 Nov 2018, 16:26 PM
#105
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



I wouldn't say that is the case. First, even if you only kill single infantry squads with your demos, there are still squads that cost around the same as most expensive LVs. And cheapest LVs also cost similar resources to cheapest infantry squads. Which means the two losses are comparable.


"Around the same"??? What squad costs 75 fuel? Or any fuel for that matter?

So let's be clear. I'm making a stretch when I compare two different 1shot kill abilities because there counterplay isn't similar. Yet somehow 0 fuel units are "similar in cost" to 75 fuel units?

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 12:33 PMVipper
A nerf to the tellar mine would mean that Ostheer light vehicle counter will further weakened.


Please explain specifically how they will be too weak if the teller reduces a t70 to 20hp. Possibly with an immobilized engine (for all lights as Armadillo suggested)
29 Nov 2018, 16:32 PM
#106
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4



Please explain specifically how they will be too weak if the teller reduces a t70 to 20hp. Possibly with an immobilized engine (for all lights as Armadillo suggested)

Because literally every serious player will go for a puma in 1v1, even more than they already do.
29 Nov 2018, 16:41 PM
#107
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 16:32 PMTobis

Because literally every serious player will go for a puma in 1v1, even more than they already do.


I don't think that's possible. Mobile defense has been meta for a while now while Ost has had it's insta-kill tellers.

And are more people are gonna use the Puma just because they need to 20hp more of damage to a standstill vehicle when it hits tellers? Is that really asking so much that people are going to make doctrine choices based on that?
29 Nov 2018, 17:41 PM
#108
avatar of Tobis
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I don't think that's possible. Mobile defense has been meta for a while now while Ost has had it's insta-kill tellers.

And are more people are gonna use the Puma just because they need to 20hp more of damage to a standstill vehicle when it hits tellers? Is that really asking so much that people are going to make doctrine choices based on that?

Sure. You need to have something to finish it off. It's common to try to sneak a teller deep in enemy territory where they wont think to sweep. Sovs usually get flamers on the first engi to keep up presence and skip the sweeper until later. The instant that the t-70 hits that teller ost will pop a puma. Better than trying to throw all your grens onto one side of the map, let alone bring a pak up.
29 Nov 2018, 17:48 PM
#109
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 17:41 PMTobis

Sure. You need to have something to finish it off. It's common to try to sneak a teller deep in enemy territory where they wont think to sweep. Sovs usually get flamers on the first engi to keep up presence and skip the sweeper until later. The instant that the t-70 hits that teller ost will pop a puma. Better than trying to throw all your grens onto one side of the map, let alone bring a pak up.

222 deals exactly 20 damage per shot with 100%chance to pen the rear and 50% Chance to pen the front of a T70 so I mean there's THAT... Also in the preview the puma actually requires a small degree of teching so realistically they would be comparable.

If the JT and elefant got nerfed so they couldn't 2 tap tanks why is it OK for the teller to OHK them withiut even being a super late super expensive super heavy? Some design consistency would be nice....
29 Nov 2018, 17:51 PM
#110
avatar of Tobis
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Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4


222 deals exactly 20 damage per shot with 100%chance to pen the rear and 50% Chance to pen the front of a T70 so I mean there's THAT... Also in the preview the puma actually requires a small degree of teching so realistically they would be comparable.

If the JT and elefant got nerfed so they couldn't 2 tap tanks why is it OK for the teller to OHK them withiut even being a super late super expensive super heavy? Some design consistency would be nice....

Because sweepers don't make tanks immune to JT shots.

How often are you honestly losing your t-70s and stuarts to tellers? It's more about the threat of a teller to good players than actually hitting one.
29 Nov 2018, 18:11 PM
#111
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 17:51 PMTobis

Because sweepers don't make tanks immune to JT shots.

How often are you honestly losing your t-70s and stuarts to tellers? It's more about the threat of a teller to good players than actually hitting one.

So if it's more about the threat than leaving a tank with heavy engine damage and so little health anything penning it can kill it would be fine then right? The only change would be taking the resources to finish it off. If not then it isn't a clean kill.
Think of it more like the change that already happened to mines, seems just having sweepers wasn't enough to keep multirole mines from wiping squads and they were nerfed to not be game changers.
29 Nov 2018, 18:47 PM
#112
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930



having a sweeper makes you completely teller-proof


WRONG.

especially with tellers, if anything explode near the mine it will wipe everything in range. Same for s-mines.
29 Nov 2018, 19:12 PM
#113
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



"Around the same"??? What squad costs 75 fuel? Or any fuel for that matter?



Yes. Of course it is hard to value fuel against manpower, but it is the manpower that limits your army the most, as you can't really increase its income (without throwing squads away). Fuel is just a modificator that allows you to get something better for your manpower. Yes, fuel is important, but I would at most value it at twice the manpower. With such conversion, there are only a few vehicles that will slightly pass squads like obers in their cost.

Also, like I said it is very rare to damage more than one vehicle with one teller. On the other hand it is a common practice to move grens in pairs, which in case of demo gives you a cost of 480 manpower and up to 120 muni in upgrades.
29 Nov 2018, 19:19 PM
#114
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 11:11 AMKatitof

And which light vehicle requires more then 2 volleys(aka 8 seconds) from that to be killed


Are you assuming a 100% accuracy?
29 Nov 2018, 21:17 PM
#115
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1



With such conversion, there are only a few vehicles that will slightly pass squads like obers in their cost.


"With my arbitrary conversion, very few vehicles will pass one of the most expensive squads in the game"

Fuel is map control dependant. Manpower isn't. Suggesting that the conversion is as simple as doubling the number of fuel is just silly.

Sure you can't increase your manpower income. Your oponnent also can't do anything to decrease it, short of choosing not to kill your units
29 Nov 2018, 21:24 PM
#116
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2018, 17:41 PMTobis

Sure. You need to have something to finish it off.


Like Dark said, 222 will do that just fine, for cheaper. And leaves you free to pick another doctrine
29 Nov 2018, 22:38 PM
#117
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



"With my arbitrary conversion, very few vehicles will pass one of the most expensive squads in the game"

Fuel is map control dependant. Manpower isn't. Suggesting that the conversion is as simple as doubling the number of fuel is just silly.

Sure you can't increase your manpower income. Your oponnent also can't do anything to decrease it, short of choosing not to kill your units


Didn't suggest the conversion is simple. I said it is not. But here is the thing. With cheapest vehicles its simple, as they cost negligible amounts of fuel - you can directly compare manpower to manpower and see they cost the same. With the expensive ones, you usually still don't pay a lot of manpower, but you do pay the fuel cost. So you can say no infantry squad costs 75 fuel, which is maximum for LV. And I will agree. Then I can say no LV costs as much manpower as most expensive infantry squads. And you will have to agree. In effect, you get that the cost is hard to compare directly, but all in all very similar. You can't really say one is more expensive or the other, like you would with infantry vs mediums or heavies. Which means it is similar.
30 Nov 2018, 02:21 AM
#118
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Given that we have the ability to convert manpower into fuel in the OST resources dropwe can determine that the going rate for manpower to fuel is 200mp=50 this means that 1 fuel is about 4mp.

Edit: cheapest LV I can think of its the clown car, it's fuel cost is worth ~60mp by this math. That's the difference between a con squad and a penal squad in power
30 Nov 2018, 02:40 AM
#119
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


You can't really say one is more expensive or the other, like you would with infantry vs mediums or heavies. Which means it is similar.


I think you are massively under-valuing fuel vs manpower. If we go by the in-game translation as Dark suggested, a t70 dwarfs an Ober squad. By a lot.
30 Nov 2018, 02:55 AM
#120
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Given that we have the ability to convert manpower into fuel in the OST resources dropwe can determine that the going rate for manpower to fuel is 200mp=50 this means that 1 fuel is about 4mp.

Edit: cheapest LV I can think of its the clown car, it's fuel cost is worth ~60mp by this math. That's the difference between a con squad and a penal squad in power


This is not the right conversion rate. Like with all conversion abilities you pay extra for the opportunity to choose what kind of resources you really want right now. If the ability would go the other way round, fuel into manpower, you wouldn't definitely get your 200mp back from 50 fuel. Remember how expensive the conversion on okw mechanised was? This is similar.

Btw, the cheapest LV is probably kubel.
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