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USF radical design changes ideas

25 Oct 2018, 06:39 AM
#41
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


... and (IIRC) the volks’ 2 stgs combined have slightly greater dps than a single BAR at all ranges, but are on a cheaper squad with better support at almost all stages of the game...

Actually that is not true 2 MP44 at max range have 2.89 DPS while a single BAR has x136% more at 3.94.
25 Oct 2018, 07:27 AM
#42
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1




Considering that getting an OKW like rework is impossible, you think that shuffling units from tiers wouldn't work at all because one would be the defacto tier to choose from?
If i'm not missing the point, i think we are just gonna discuss whether keeping the current model with "stand alone" officers but with an easier access to both versus a straight linear tech is better.


Considering USF reword is impossible, I would rather keep the actual tiering model and play with unit stats and cost.

Like
-Vet0 RM could receive native better RA at cost of lower RA reduction at vet3. Give Riflemen 0.87 native RA and maybe (need some test) people would stop rushing them or trying to outspam them with 4grens or 4volks start.
-Ambulance fuel cost could be removed and manpower cost reduce
-HMG.50 receive a wider cone of fire now that sprint is removed.
-M1ATG having also a wider cone of fire so less flankable
-M15 having native 360 health points so it survives 2 shots
-BAR could cost 50 munitions instead of 60

I mean, if we decide to not touch the teching structure, there are things that can be done without destroying the balance.
25 Oct 2018, 08:07 AM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Does 6 = 4?

Relevant how when talking firepower?
25 Oct 2018, 08:48 AM
#44
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2018, 07:27 AMEsxile

...
-M1ATG having also a wider cone of fire so less flankable
...

M1 ATG has wider cone than other ATGs and it is actually quite good vs fast moving targets.
25 Oct 2018, 12:05 PM
#45
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Sidenote: how come you say USF getting an okw-like rework is impossible?



Time and resource commitment needed are not worth for the state USF is in, compared to original OKW. At this point, you need to be efficient in how you implement any changes. What's the most effective way to achieve a desired goal without requiring lots of testing in either balance or implementation.
25 Oct 2018, 14:00 PM
#46
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

Well, 100% agree with those USF chanhing concept. I JUST loose 7 2v2 game as usf because side teaching is completely useless with okw playstyle right now.
25 Oct 2018, 15:53 PM
#47
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2018, 06:39 AMVipper

Actually that is not true 2 MP44 at max range have 2.89 DPS while a single BAR has x136% more at 3.94.

Ah ok. Does that mean their mid and close range dps is greater? Also, how do the total squad dps’s (4 garands, 1 BAR vs 2 stgs, 3 volk k98s) stack up at those ranges?


Time and resource commitment needed are not worth for the state USF is in, compared to original OKW. At this point, you need to be efficient in how you implement any changes. What's the most effective way to achieve a desired goal without requiring lots of testing in either balance or implementation.

Huh good to know. Makes me a bit sad though.

It’d be great to at least rework airborne commander and tweak timing on recon support a bit for the reasons I mentioned that make it hard to use their callins to the full extent though.
25 Oct 2018, 16:38 PM
#48
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1


Ah ok. Does that mean their mid and close range dps is greater? Also, how do the total squad dps’s (4 garands, 1 BAR vs 2 stgs, 3 volk k98s) stack up at those ranges?

Huh good to know. Makes me a bit sad though.

It’d be great to at least rework airborne commander and tweak timing on recon support a bit for the reasons I mentioned that make it hard to use their callins to the full extent though.


Point Blank:
Rifles and 1 BAR: 6.79x4+13.2= 40.36
Volks with StGs: 4.74x3+7.52x2= 29.26
15 Range:
Rifles and 1 BAR: 3.44x4+6.5= 20.26
Volks with StGs: 3.04x3+5.57x2= 20.26

Basically, a BAR doubles the firepower of one rifleman. StGs add 40-100% firepower to the guys holding them, except at ranges of 32 and above.

With no upgrades, rifles do 45% more damage point blank, but become about equal to volks at range 20 and beyond.

2xStGs are better than 1xBAR at all ranges below 30.
27 Oct 2018, 00:55 AM
#49
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



Point Blank:
Rifles and 1 BAR: 6.79x4+13.2= 40.36
Volks with StGs: 4.74x3+7.52x2= 29.26
15 Range:
Rifles and 1 BAR: 3.44x4+6.5= 20.26
Volks with StGs: 3.04x3+5.57x2= 20.26

Basically, a BAR doubles the firepower of one rifleman. StGs add 40-100% firepower to the guys holding them, except at ranges of 32 and above.

With no upgrades, rifles do 45% more damage point blank, but become about equal to volks at range 20 and beyond.

2xStGs are better than 1xBAR at all ranges below 30.

Thanks for the stats. Good to know.

The last line throws me for a bit though - it says that 2xstgs are better than the 1 BAR at ranges below 30 but then there's this line:

Point Blank:
Rifles and 1 BAR: 6.79x4+13.2= 40.36
Volks with StGs: 4.74x3+7.52x2= 29.26

Did I miss something?
27 Oct 2018, 01:09 AM
#50
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911


Thanks for the stats. Good to know.

The last line throws me for a bit though - it says that 2xstgs are better than the 1 BAR at ranges below 30 but then there's this line:

Point Blank:
Rifles and 1 BAR: 6.79x4+13.2= 40.36
Volks with StGs: 4.74x3+7.52x2= 29.26

Did I miss something?


It depends what he means, if he is comparing two entities with STGs vs 1 bar, of course the two does more damage than the one. But all things being equal, the DPS of two stgs should be compared to 1 bar and 1 garand.
27 Oct 2018, 01:18 AM
#51
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



It depends what he means, if he is comparing two entities with STGs vs 1 bar, of course the two does more damage than the one. But all things being equal, the DPS of two stgs should be compared to 1 bar and 1 garand.

That's why I asked for total squad DPS, which is what I believe I was referencing.
27 Oct 2018, 05:43 AM
#52
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1


Did I miss something?


Sorry, I did- 1 BAR is also better within 7 range. Looks like I was too hasty to reply before.
27 Oct 2018, 18:13 PM
#53
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



Sorry, I did- 1 BAR is also better within 7 range. Looks like I was too hasty to reply before.

Thanks for the clarification. So basically rifles with 1 BAR are better at short and very long range. Weird.
30 Oct 2018, 00:42 AM
#54
avatar of Euan

Posts: 177

I think nobody is reading this thread anymore, but I agree that swapping tech around is a simple and potentially viable way of fixing the problem. I think there's only one way that really makes sense:

Base tier
  • Rifles
  • Rear Echelon
  • M20 (unlocks on getting LT/CPT)

LT Tier
  • Mortar
  • MG
  • Stuart

CPT Tier
  • Pak Howie
  • AAHT
  • AT Gun


Okay, so why is this good?
  • Each tier has one each of indirect, suppression, and AT
  • Fuel cost items (AAHT / Stuart) are not in the same tier
  • MG / AT gun combo is avoided (would be OP and allow to rush Major)
  • LT has static suppression/mobile AT, while CPT has mobile suppression/static AT
  • I feel they are balanced. Maybe MG/Stuart > AAHT/ATGun, but then Pak Howie > Mortar
  • M20 Utility vehicle always available (for the... utility)
  • USF early game has to use skill (flanking, RE smoke)

That's all I got. I'm going to bed so let me know how dumb I am and I'll check it in the morning ;)
30 Oct 2018, 02:05 AM
#55
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2018, 00:42 AMEuan
I think nobody is reading this thread anymore, but I agree that swapping tech around is a simple and potentially viable way of fixing the problem. I think there's only one way that really makes sense:

Base tier
  • Rifles
  • Rear Echelon
  • M20 (unlocks on getting LT/CPT)

LT Tier
  • Mortar
  • MG
  • Stuart

CPT Tier
  • Pak Howie
  • AAHT
  • AT Gun


Okay, so why is this good?
  • Each tier has one each of indirect, suppression, and AT
  • Fuel cost items (AAHT / Stuart) are not in the same tier
  • MG / AT gun combo is avoided (would be OP and allow to rush Major)
  • LT has static suppression/mobile AT, while CPT has mobile suppression/static AT
  • I feel they are balanced. Maybe MG/Stuart > AAHT/ATGun, but then Pak Howie > Mortar
  • M20 Utility vehicle always available (for the... utility)
  • USF early game has to use skill (flanking, RE smoke)

That's all I got. I'm going to bed so let me know how dumb I am and I'll check it in the morning ;)

LT tier is kinda well round:
- get mg to hold inf + soft AT.
- back up with M7 = stopping MP bleed.
CPT tier:
- Need to reseach about timming, AAHT + Supervise is a question.
- M20 in base + Capt tier would be a new meta if M20 get lower cost/buff vet ideas
30 Oct 2018, 08:15 AM
#56
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

You need to make grenade way cheaper or put back smoke on rifle if you link mortar with T1.
I can't see why you would go captain over lieutenant except for the pak which is a bad design imo and you still have the problem of expensive back-teching just to get or the HMG or the M1Atg.

I repeat myself but AAHT is countered by pak or Raketen (one shot is enough to send your AAHT at your base for repair), your own M1 isn't going to change that. On the other hand, the Stuart is much more mobile and pfaust are a much great threat than pak or raketen, here the HMG is key to suppress squads before they can reach pfaust range.

Current USF design is out of date. if it is to keep the same and just changing some units from tiers, better keep the actual one and buff what needs to be buffed.
30 Oct 2018, 15:23 PM
#57
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 884

TO:

REs - 5 man sqaud 200 MP

Riflemen - 5 man sqaud 270 MP

T1 - Free grenade teching including Rifle grenades on Riflemen.

Bolster infantry upgrade for 35 fuel and 150 MP increasing sqaud sizes to 6 men for riflemen, REs, as well as CPT and LT.

Over all I think the #1 problem with USF are the overly expenisve MP costs for units that don't preform well at all. Units are cost too much for their preformance:

Rear Echeleons

Riflemen

M2 HMG .50 cal

M15 AAHT

M20 Scout Ca

Every single one of these units is extremely overpriced.

30 Oct 2018, 19:08 PM
#58
avatar of Euan

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2018, 08:15 AMEsxile
You need to make grenade way cheaper or put back smoke on rifle if you link mortar with T1.
I can't see why you would go captain over lieutenant except for the pak which is a bad design imo and you still have the problem of expensive back-teching just to get or the HMG or the M1Atg.

I repeat myself but AAHT is countered by pak or Raketen (one shot is enough to send your AAHT at your base for repair), your own M1 isn't going to change that. On the other hand, the Stuart is much more mobile and pfaust are a much great threat than pak or raketen, here the HMG is key to suppress squads before they can reach pfaust range.

Current USF design is out of date. if it is to keep the same and just changing some units from tiers, better keep the actual one and buff what needs to be buffed.


Yep I agree, cheaper grenades would make sense. I also really liked the suggestion earlier in the thread of moving some of the LT / CPT fuel cost to Major, so teching both becomes viable. I think those things would work well in combination with my suggestion.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with your comments with the units though. I'm not saying my suggestion is 100% perfect or that it requires zero other changes, but don't you think it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the current tiers?
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