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Infiltration commandos 3 men at spawn

19 Oct 2018, 17:52 PM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Tightrope actually looked into getting the spreadsheet actual hosting, so no downloads needed now!

https://coh2db.com/stats/

Nice!
Well done Cruzz and Tightrope
19 Oct 2018, 18:27 PM
#22
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6


The best approach would probably be to just give them tommy rifles and nerf their commando brens.


That is exactly what I was going to propose. If commandos are changed to spawn with rifles, they no longer need their commando Brens to compensate for having 3 Stens. Going for long range DPS would simply mean not getting the free Stens upgrade, and 2x nerfed commando Bren with 3x Lee Enfield should do the same long range DPS that they do now.
19 Oct 2018, 18:58 PM
#23
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 17:52 PMVipper

Nice!
Well done Cruzz and Tightrope

Need to add that I believe that Janne252 was the one who actually got the job done.
19 Oct 2018, 20:54 PM
#24
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

I'd like to point out that the Commando's Light Gammon Bomb is significantly scarier than the Stromtrooper's new Incendiary Grenade (interestingly, the light Gammon and bundle grenades are identical). That means that Commandos' damage is affected less by having fewer models.

Overall, I'd say that the Stormtrooper infiltration solution is more elegant, but I don't mind that there's a difference, especially when Commandos can become a 5-man squad.
19 Oct 2018, 20:58 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

I'd like to point out that the Commando's Light Gammon Bomb is significantly scarier than the Stromtrooper's new Incendiary Grenade (interestingly, the light Gammon and bundle grenades are identical). That means that Commandos' damage is affected less by having fewer models.

Overall, I'd say that the Stormtrooper infiltration solution is more elegant, but I don't mind that there's a difference, especially when Commandos can become a 5-man squad.

Commandos start with nades on cooldown.
Storms not, despite even partisans having molotov on cooldown.
19 Oct 2018, 21:03 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Need to add that I believe that Janne252 was the one who actually got the job done.

I would hate not giving Credit where it is due:

Well done Cruzz, Janne252 and Tightrope.
20 Oct 2018, 02:01 AM
#27
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


The best approach would probably be to just give them tommy rifles and nerf their commando brens.

Well if one did really want to shoot them self in the foot by not using stens then you might as well let them have a squad that’s superior to tommies. They cost a lot more and are doctrinal, so I don’t see why a high long range dps model in exchange for almost no potency while moving would need to be nerfed.
20 Oct 2018, 03:05 AM
#28
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

They cost a lot more and are doctrinal, so I don’t see why a high long range dps model in exchange for almost no potency while moving would need to be nerfed.

Because they are at ober level when they have brens. Putting them over ober level is probably just too much. Its not like theyre only slightly better than tommies, and its not like I actually suggested putting their rifle + bren performance worse than their current sten + bren performance.
20 Oct 2018, 23:08 PM
#29
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


Because they are at ober level when they have brens. Putting them over ober level is probably just too much. Its not like theyre only slightly better than tommies, and its not like I actually suggested putting their rifle + bren performance worse than their current sten + bren performance.

While I do agree 100% with you, aren't they similar in cost? Also, aren't ober rifles a lot better than tommy rifles, especially on the move? I'm not sure about this, but don't obers also get better veterancy bonuses overall? Commandos are also doctrinal while obers are not, and are the only elite infantry squad brits have (actually, they're the only other combat infantry brits have besides tommies too). The thing that mostly makes me agree with you, though, is the fact that they have camo and are a 5 man squad.

And at the end of the day, commandos are much better with stens anyway and this is mostly a moot point.
21 Oct 2018, 00:09 AM
#30
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2018, 20:58 PMKatitof

Commandos start with nades on cooldown.
Storms not, despite even partisans having molotov on cooldown.


That is not intended, Miragefla has said it was an oversight and the abilities should at some point all be on cooldown upon spawn.
21 Oct 2018, 00:11 AM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



That is not intended, Miragefla has said it was an oversight and the abilities should at some point all be on cooldown upon spawn.

I know, just certain other someone believed its fair and balanced.
21 Oct 2018, 17:25 PM
#32
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2018, 00:11 AMKatitof

I know, just certain other someone believed its fair and balanced.


I was just pointing out that Commandos have better grenades, which is good for their performance with fewer men. I think Stormtrooper grenades should start on cooldown as well.
23 Oct 2018, 00:31 AM
#33
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2


While I do agree 100% with you, aren't they similar in cost? Also, aren't ober rifles a lot better than tommy rifles, especially on the move? I'm not sure about this, but don't obers also get better veterancy bonuses overall? Commandos are also doctrinal while obers are not, and are the only elite infantry squad brits have (actually, they're the only other combat infantry brits have besides tommies too). The thing that mostly makes me agree with you, though, is the fact that they have camo and are a 5 man squad.

And at the end of the day, commandos are much better with stens anyway and this is mostly a moot point.

Ober rifles being better than tommy rifles isn't really the point though. The two brens more or less equal the mg34 AND the 3 ober rifles (again, long range). So imagine if obers had 3 extra tommy rifles of DPS.

Yes, obers get better veterancy (you can make arguments about the ambush bonus, smoke, or whatever else being conditionally better, but as a whole, obers definitely do have better vet).

I think timing is a consideration too. Besides this, I think what you posted is a fairly complete picture of the comparison.

Anyway, I think the point is that there is justification for reasonable concern that enfields + brens become an issue, and that would be enough to warrant counteractive measures (nerfs to their brens) - especially since their current bren combo seems fine in its current state.
24 Oct 2018, 00:31 AM
#34
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


Ober rifles being better than tommy rifles isn't really the point though. The two brens more or less equal the mg34 AND the 3 ober rifles (again, long range). So imagine if obers had 3 extra tommy rifles of DPS.

Yes, obers get better veterancy (you can make arguments about the ambush bonus, smoke, or whatever else being conditionally better, but as a whole, obers definitely do have better vet).

I think timing is a consideration too. Besides this, I think what you posted is a fairly complete picture of the comparison.

Anyway, I think the point is that there is justification for reasonable concern that enfields + brens become an issue, and that would be enough to warrant counteractive measures (nerfs to their brens) - especially since their current bren combo seems fine in its current state.

+1

And again, getting brens instead of stens is more or less shooting oneself in the foot and should be avoided anyway.
24 Oct 2018, 07:06 AM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


And again, getting brens instead of stens is more or less shooting oneself in the foot and should be avoided anyway.

Not really depends on how you want to use your commandos. A bren does not have a significant impact on DPS in range 13 while it greatly increases the chance to kill a retreating squad in longer ranges.
24 Oct 2018, 09:02 AM
#36
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

So in conclusion having them spawn with rifles (with a few tweaks) would fix most issues.
  • Spawn at 5 men with 5x Lee Enfield. No more disproportional manpower cost.
  • Free upgrade to Sten guns, similar to CRP Stormtrooper MP 40 package.
  • Spawning with rifles should prevent mass wipes on retreat, while 5 men spawn with the free upgrade ultimately rewards good planning and cunning by being to infiltrate with a full strength squad.

  • Nerf commando Brens DPS to a level that 3x Lee Enfield + 2x Commando Bren have the same long range DPS as 2x Commando Brens (and 3x Stens) have now.
  • This would give Commandos two distinct roles as either CQC or elite long range, depending on player preference or strategic choice.
24 Oct 2018, 12:39 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

So in conclusion having them spawn with rifles (with a few tweaks) would fix most issues.
...

or simply add the option to be built from HQ at the normal price of the unit.
24 Oct 2018, 13:11 PM
#38
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2018, 12:39 PMVipper

or simply add the option to be built from HQ at the normal price of the unit.


But that doesn't adress the disproportional MP price of infiltration spawning them as 3-men nor their severely restricted combat effectiveness (and survivability on retreat) while doing so?
24 Oct 2018, 13:27 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



But that doesn't adress the disproportional MP price of infiltration spawning them as 3-men nor their severely restricted combat effectiveness (and survivability on retreat) while doing so?

Infiltration units pay a premium for being able to instantly appear in the battlefield.

If one wants this surprise attack one will have to pay the premium, if one simply want a full unit one will not have to pay it and he will be able to built them from HQ at the cost the price they are balanced around.
24 Oct 2018, 13:44 PM
#40
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833


Because they are at ober level when they have brens. Putting them over ober level is probably just too much. Its not like theyre only slightly better than tommies, and its not like I actually suggested putting their rifle + bren performance worse than their current sten + bren performance.


Don't Obers already have much better DPS through vet? I mean yea they seem equal with double bren vs MG34 stock.

but when ober hit vet 2+ commandos just bleed like stuck pigs. If commandos are going to have a long range focus with different weapon stats then make it a completely separate unit with separate vet to sten camo commandos. No use having the current vet suited around stens and ambush (smoke on retreat) if you are going to give them rifles.


---------------------------------- Line of choice ------------------------------------------



Or you could do the 180 turn around option and make regular commandos the elite Para/Obers type unit with long range DPS, while making brens a non fuel and MP upgrade for them (so double bren upgrade button for 90muni etc instead of currently having to pay fuel,mp and 90muni at HQ). Also buffing vet and removing camo to match those two units.

Inf commandos could keep the sneak stealth camo role, stealth stens and current vet. This is a better option in my opinion and makes more sense.
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