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Flame Halftrack

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17 Sep 2018, 13:08 PM
#1
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

This is a topic i actually wanted to adress earlier, but i constantly forgot.

It's funny, i don't hear much complainment about this unit while the ost flamer halftrack with puma callin strat has been dominating 1v1 axis for quite some time now? I mean, it's not for nothing that some mainly okw users have switched to ostheer just for this unit. And everybody can see it's quite very strong. I feel like playing against ostheer in 1v1 atleast is about how to counter the flamehalftrack. If you can't do that you are done in probably 20 mins.

It's clear that it's a strong unit, but is it too strong?
Maybe a small nerf in damage? Just suggestions. I have no clue if it's being discussed already, but i dont think so. Let me know if it is already being discussed somewhere else, bcs then this can be closed :P

What do you think? Constructive opinions please, no fanboy whining ;)
17 Sep 2018, 13:14 PM
#2
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4844 | Subs: 16

I just want to say some points, because i saw some comments in the twitch chat.
Yes you get very fast vet3 with this units, BUT the vet does not really care for the flamerhft.
You don't get really strong upgrades for it.

It is always a back and forward: flamerhft is on the field, allies are in trouble. T70 is on the fiel, axis are in trouble.


17 Sep 2018, 13:26 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13762 | Subs: 7

Well, you can click a button and have a panic puma to counter T70, however there isn't really anything allied side that would do the same, short of AEC, which does arrive pretty early, but since brits are irrelevant, not sure if its worth mentioning.

251, being light vehicle, doesn't really need offensive vet, especially when its flamers are extremely strong from get go.

Vet gives it mainly mobility, but that mobility does make a massive difference for it, which we have seen yesterday multiple times.

At least it needs more then 2 seconds now to kill fully healed garrison now, but other then that, thanks to how flamers and their accuracy works, 251 is a retreat wipe machine if you commit to a chase.
17 Sep 2018, 13:30 PM
#4
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1136 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2018, 13:26 PMKatitof
Well, you can click a button and have a panic puma to counter T70, however there isn't really anything allied side that would do the same, short of AEC, which does arrive pretty early, but since brits are irrelevant, not sure if its worth mentioning.

251, being light vehicle, doesn't really need offensive vet, especially when its flamers are extremely strong from get go.

Vet gives it mainly mobility, but that mobility does make a massive difference for it, which we have seen yesterday multiple times.

At least it needs more then 2 seconds now to kill fully healed garrison now, but other then that, thanks to how flamers and their accuracy works, 251 is a retreat wipe machine if you commit to a chase.


Guards or AT Tommies? FHT is high risk, high reward unit. I don't see any issues with it. Yes it comes early but its basically relegated to covering flanks as the game progresses. T70 much better bang for buck and its ability to scale.
17 Sep 2018, 14:10 PM
#5
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

This is a bad mentality I see in this community. Just because a unit is a strong choice or is favoured in the meta doesn't automatically mean it needs to be nerfed. CoH2 seems to always want to nerf everything that becomes popular into the ground. I think what would instead be better is doing things other than nerfing the potency of the halftrack. There are many other things to do:

- Increase upgrade cost
- Increase upgrade time
- Add a requirement that requires upgrading to the next battlephase (the one that unlocks T3 - this is the requirement for flame HT in coh1)
- Decreasing acceleration on the halftrack (so it dies more easily)

Etc.

I think nerfing unit performance just decreases strategic choice in CoH2.

Alternatively, to nerf light vehicles across the board, you could buff mine damage vs light vehicles. In CoH2, for example, a soviet mine will damage 50% of a light vehicle and will damage the engine.

In CoH1, mines had a 200% damage bonus vs light vehicles, and would destroy the engine instead of damaging it. This made kamakazi diving and risky play much more dangerous, and made it much easier to deal with light vehicles without getting overrun.
17 Sep 2018, 14:10 PM
#6
avatar of Cresc

Posts: 333

Light vehicles are a problem no matter what faction we're talking about.
17 Sep 2018, 14:36 PM
#7
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 471

Nosliw makes a fair point however it’s interesting that now this is going to be called a bad mentality after other light vehicles got whacked with the nerf bat. If light vehicles should either be strong across the board or not, we’re over 4 years clear of the horrors of sniper clown cars and yet it’s still a 15 fuel investment that will delay your tech and it doesn’t have it’s original ability. Disparity is more what makes the FHT odd, it’s blazing trails while units that ever did the same got whacked, although I think this has more to do with the flame buffs that occurred.
17 Sep 2018, 14:58 PM
#8
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

I think the Flame Halftrack has to be that good to coexist with the 222. It's a very powerful AI light vehicle but one that requires a lot of support. The 222 is much more versatile and is the only vehicular AT Ostheer gets until T3. When you consider that SOV T1, USF T1 and UKF T0 all can field light vehicles it becomes an even bigger tradeoff.

If you support it properly that trade-off is worth it at a high level, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
17 Sep 2018, 15:02 PM
#9
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1953 | Subs: 3

It's strong but very fragile. I don't think the unit itself is overpowered.
Its access to Panzer Tactician might be, though. That ability kinda nullifies its weakness.
17 Sep 2018, 15:13 PM
#10
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2018, 14:10 PMNosliw


- Increase upgrade cost
- Increase upgrade time
- Add a requirement that requires upgrading to the next battlephase (the one that unlocks T3 - this is the requirement for flame HT in coh1)
- Decreasing acceleration on the halftrack (so it dies more easily)

I like this thinking
17 Sep 2018, 15:13 PM
#11
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
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Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2018, 13:30 PMGdot


Guards or AT Tommies? FHT is high risk, high reward unit. I don't see any issues with it. Yes it comes early but its basically relegated to covering flanks as the game progresses. T70 much better bang for buck and its ability to scale.

Guards isn't enough. Flame halftrack is quite cheap for the damage it does imo ^^
17 Sep 2018, 15:14 PM
#12
avatar of |GB| The Hooligan486
Senior Referee Badge

Posts: 3601 | Subs: 1

I just want to say some points, because i saw some comments in the twitch chat.
Yes you get very fast vet3 with this units, BUT the vet does not really care for the flamerhft.
You don't get really strong upgrades for it.

It is always a back and forward: flamerhft is on the field, allies are in trouble. T70 is on the fiel, axis are in trouble.



The vet 2 gives i think the increased movement which is pretty goooood :D
17 Sep 2018, 15:28 PM
#13
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4844 | Subs: 16


The vet 2 gives i think the increased movement which is pretty goooood :D


and vet 3 : more range for reinforcement :P
17 Sep 2018, 16:44 PM
#14
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10622 | Subs: 9



and vet 3 : more range for reinforcement :P


Can you now reinforce from a FlamerHT? :unsure:
17 Sep 2018, 16:48 PM
#15
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 4844 | Subs: 16



Can you now reinforce from a FlamerHT? :unsure:


No you can't. That is the joke of the vet :P
Lelic^^
17 Sep 2018, 17:08 PM
#16
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2180 | Subs: 4

Is it possible to make it do less damage to retreating units or while it's moving? IIRC flamethrowers aren't accuracy based anymore so I don't know how well this will work. Nerf direct damage and increase the DOT so it doesn't burn retreating/moving units so well?




Also tie the CP4 into t3. It's just silly that it's the only meta medium call-in left that isn't.
17 Sep 2018, 17:36 PM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13762 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Sep 2018, 17:08 PMTobis
Is it possible to make it do less damage to retreating units or while it's moving? IIRC flamethrowers aren't accuracy based anymore so I don't know how well this will work. Nerf direct damage and increase the DOT so it doesn't burn retreating/moving units so well?




Also tie the CP4 into t3. It's just silly that it's the only meta medium call-in left that isn't.

You can change accuracy on the move/retreat, but not damage and flamers happen to always hit, so one thing to circumvent this would be to nerf direct flamer damage and increase DoT damage while reducing DoT duration to keep it in line, that would make it bursty against stationary units, but weaker against mobile and retreating ones.
17 Sep 2018, 18:17 PM
#18
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 141

Cmon. This unit is fine as it is. As every other flamer vehicle in the game (except Croc) it has good DPS, but low HP and mobility. And it cant damage tanks.
17 Sep 2018, 18:53 PM
#19
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2609 | Subs: 1

It has more to do with Ostheer being strong enough early game to delay even more the pak or not needing the 222.
Someone mentioned high risk high reward unit, I don't see any high level risk to call it asap and upgrade it with flamer.
17 Sep 2018, 19:03 PM
#20
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Combination with puma is to strong, and he are to good on retreut (if it was old coh i dont write about it, but now we have cybergame, so why one faction must have so lethai weapon in early game, then anothers ?).
Basicly its same situation like with old stuart and t-70 or luchs, allies in early game dont have mobile AT unit (only ptrs in m3), no mobile at, you lost on flanks. Just dont need attack with 251 guards or zooks.
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