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OKW COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

20 Aug 2018, 22:58 PM
#61
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4144 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2018, 22:27 PMKasarov


What's wrong with some synergy? Soviets have howitzers + recon, or mark target + ISU. Wehrmact has spotting scopes + Elefant(!). These commanders are hardly meta, either. The only thing that makes Special Ops meta is the Command Panther anyway.



That's a pretty good point. What about this revision?

[7CP] HEAT Shells
[7CP] NahVw
PzIV, Panther (not Command Panther), KT, and JgPzIV can launch either smoke (Psuedo USF-Style) or small frag grenades for self defense. Shared cooldowns.

Keep in mind I suggested also nerfing the Command Panther's RoF to make it less independent of a vehicle as it is currently.


Synergy is good, but putting everything in 1 doctrine is a big no no. Prime example is ostheer doctrine with elephant, dive bomb, recon, and spot scopes. Just way to much good stuff in a single doctrine. Soviet guard motor is also a prime example.

I don’t know about smoke or something else. Heat is actually really nice for certain units like the P4 and puma because of their low pen.
21 Aug 2018, 06:13 AM
#62
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 944



Your idea of a Panzer Elite commander is very good, but it gives me another idea on how the PE could really be brought back into a single commander, at least sort of. Of course this is just entirely my opinion.

223 Command Car - From SnakeEye's "All Units" mod, capable of capturing and locking down territory in order to increase resource production. The PE as well as the OKW are not able to build Observation points or resource caches respectively so this would be a nice addition to the OKW, of course you would be securing territory but for a cost of manpower, fuel and population cap space.

251 Halftrack Mechanized Group - The 250 is open topped, comes armed with double MG42s, perfect for supporting your Panzergrenadiers, can also drop med packs since the PGs won't have med packs like the Sturmpioneers in order to heal on the move, similar to the USF Mechanized Company M3 Combat Group Call in. The Panzergrenadiers inside would be an expensive alternative to both the Sturmpioneers and Volksgrenadiers. 4 or 5 man squad armed with Kar98ks initially, could be upgraded with StGs or Panzerschrecks similar to the Stormtroopers and they can also only repair vehicles.

Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer" - firing the normal Panzergranate, cheaper non-tech alternative to the Jagdpanzer IV.

Repair and Recovery 251 Halftrack - also like the 223 being able to lock down is present in SnakeEye's "All Units" mod, can recover German vehicle wrecks in order to get them fully operational again, impedes an economic debuff according to the vehicle in order to be balanced, that meaning that recovering a Panzer IV would be a lot cheaper than a King Tiger for example.

Tiger I - Same as your idea, reason for it is the same as the AT Hetzer above.

This is inspired by the Ostheer Mechanized Assault doctrine together with the Panzer Elite's concept and of course what's possible from the All Units mod in order to cram the PE into a single commander, more or less.

I think that the light vehicles would be the most interesting things here since they would be able to cover some of the OKW's draw backs, especially the 223 with it's locking down of sectors and the 250 Ambulance being able to reinforce on the move, or at least being a bit more mobile.

Alternatively the Repair and Recovery 251 can be replaced by some sort of Artillery strike, similar to the Ostheer Mechanized Assault doctrine.

Like I said this is just my opinion, cheers.


:drool::drool::drool:

Damn, this would have been awesome
21 Aug 2018, 09:53 AM
#63
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2



:drool::drool::drool:

Damn, this would have been awesome


Lol I just noticed I mistakenly write 250 instead of 251 Halftrack a couple of times.

But yeah, I got many good ideas that will never be implemented, for one reason or another.
21 Aug 2018, 10:25 AM
#64
avatar of Nick Banana

Posts: 96

Smoke on panzer elite sound good
21 Aug 2018, 12:02 PM
#65
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1



Your idea of a Panzer Elite commander is very good, but it gives me another idea on how the PE could really be brought back into a single commander, at least sort of. Of course this is just entirely my opinion.

223 Command Car - From SnakeEye's "All Units" mod, capable of capturing and locking down territory in order to increase resource production. The PE as well as the OKW are not able to build Observation points or resource caches respectively so this would be a nice addition to the OKW, of course you would be securing territory but for a cost of manpower, fuel and population cap space.

251 Halftrack Mechanized Group - The 250 is open topped, comes armed with double MG42s, perfect for supporting your Panzergrenadiers, can also drop med packs since the PGs won't have med packs like the Sturmpioneers in order to heal on the move, similar to the USF Mechanized Company M3 Combat Group Call in. The Panzergrenadiers inside would be an expensive alternative to both the Sturmpioneers and Volksgrenadiers. 4 or 5 man squad armed with Kar98ks initially, could be upgraded with StGs or Panzerschrecks similar to the Stormtroopers and they can also only repair vehicles.

Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer" - firing the normal Panzergranate, cheaper non-tech alternative to the Jagdpanzer IV.

Repair and Recovery 251 Halftrack - also like the 223 being able to lock down is present in SnakeEye's "All Units" mod, can recover German vehicle wrecks in order to get them fully operational again, impedes an economic debuff according to the vehicle in order to be balanced, that meaning that recovering a Panzer IV would be a lot cheaper than a King Tiger for example.

Tiger I - Same as your idea, reason for it is the same as the AT Hetzer above.

This is inspired by the Ostheer Mechanized Assault doctrine together with the Panzer Elite's concept and of course what's possible from the All Units mod in order to cram the PE into a single commander, more or less.

I think that the light vehicles would be the most interesting things here since they would be able to cover some of the OKW's draw backs, especially the 223 with it's locking down of sectors and the 250 Ambulance being able to reinforce on the move, or at least being a bit more mobile.

Alternatively the Repair and Recovery 251 can be replaced by some sort of Artillery strike, similar to the Ostheer Mechanized Assault doctrine.

Like I said this is just my opinion, cheers.


I suggest to add:
1. some ammo ability - strafe, barrage, smoke or samething like that. Commander is too MP intensive currently.
2. What about upgrade for 251 HT which would make it a ostheer mortar HT? Commander ability stays as it is but add a upgrade that HT can be changed in mortar ht (for X ammo) but looses their core abilities to reinforce and heal. Mobile indirect fire would make this unit better more desirable. Again it would be inspired by PanzerElite concept.

But generally imo it's really good commander design. GJ
21 Aug 2018, 13:18 PM
#66
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2018, 12:02 PMStark


I suggest to add:
1. some ammo ability - strafe, barrage, smoke or samething like that. Commander is too MP intensive currently.
2. What about upgrade for 251 HT which would make it a ostheer mortar HT? Commander ability stays as it is but add a upgrade that HT can be changed in mortar ht (for X ammo) but looses their core abilities to reinforce and heal. Mobile indirect fire would make this unit better more desirable. Again it would be inspired by PanzerElite concept.

But generally imo it's really good commander design. GJ


You have a good point in saying that American Soldiers ideas should complemented with ammo based abilities. I also think that the Radio Car does fit a lot better to the Overwatch doctrin.

So i would suggest:
1. Panzer Tactitian (imo a must for this doctrine;)
2. 250 Halftrack Mechanized Group with Obersoldaten (Im sticking here to my idea)
3. Breakthrough / improved Panzer Commander
4. Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer"
5. Tiger I

Now you have 2 ammo based and 3 fuel based abilities.
21 Aug 2018, 13:35 PM
#67
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

I'd put the Hetzer AT into T1 as an Su-76-like stopgap light tank destroyer as an alternative to Rakettens and to open up T1 strategies as an alternative to a Puma to counter enemy light vehicles.

But this topic isn't for discussing new commanders. Unless you guys are talking about the Elite Armor doctrine in which case I don't think it needs such drastic changes to become viable.
21 Aug 2018, 15:06 PM
#68
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1

I'd put the Hetzer AT into T1 as an Su-76-like stopgap light tank destroyer as an alternative to Rakettens and to open up T1 strategies as an alternative to a Puma to counter enemy light vehicles.

But this topic isn't for discussing new commanders. Unless you guys are talking about the Elite Armor doctrine in which case I don't think it needs such drastic changes to become viable.


The amount of changes that are necessary to make Panzer Elite viable is certainly debatable. But even in a very conservative redesign the Sturmtiger has to replaced by an another call-in tank imo and the Panzer Commander ability needs a complete rework / improvement. Autorepair in its current state is also not really worth a whole commander slot.
21 Aug 2018, 15:21 PM
#69
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Those are moderate changes (as in not completely overhauling the entire doctrine with new abilities) and these are exactly like I proposed at the beginning of this topic. See below.


I think Elite Armor doctrine and Overwatch Doctrine were voted for most. I don't have much experience with Overwatch so I won't mention that one.

As for Elite Armor: the doctrine overal isn't that bad but needs a few tweaks to make it more viable compared to other doctrines.


2CP) Signal Relay
  • This ability isn't bad but it generally isn't particularily useful either (at least not in team games) and when ammunition is scarce it's definitely not a priority to spend munis on.
  • Could use some minor tweaks like lower cost and longer duration.
  • Could also be made into passive vehicle tank awareness, which spots enemy vehicles in FOW on the minimap and tactical map within XX meter radius of friendly vehicles.


4CP) Emergency Repairs
  • This ability isn't practical at all. It takes too long to repair critical damage (I think it takes 15 seconds) which means it can only be used in safe positions, making it extremely situational.
  • Either reduce critical damage repair time drastically
  • Or turn ability into a passive self-repair like the similar Soviet ability. This would make the doctrine more attractive for heavy vehicle based builds because it frees up Sturmpioneers for tasks other than repairing.


7CP) HEAT Shells
  • This ability is fine. Greatly increases damage output of tanks for a cost-effective amount of munis.
  • Perhaps customize the ability duration time to match vehicle ROF. I think this would be OP as a passive ability.


8CP) Panzer Commander
  • This ability needs to be overhauled in order to be worth it over the pintle mounted MG. Needs to give more vision and perhaps an accuracy bonus. Or maybe give it a significant bonus to veterancy gain (like 20-30% faster veterancy).
  • The artillery call-in takes way too long to land making it nearly useless. It either needs more range or it needs to activate quicker. If so, maybe change it to a light artillery barrage.


11CP) Sturmtiger
  • IMO this vehicle is fine the way it is right now, difficult to use but can be very effective.
  • Veterancy requirements need to be looked at though. Unless it's constantly hitting vehicles it just doesn't vet up at all really.
  • Maybe switch Sturmtiger with Special Operations Doctrine's Command Panther. This would make more sense to both doctrines. Command Panther might be OP with HEAT shells and mark target ability combined, though.
21 Aug 2018, 15:47 PM
#70
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2018, 12:02 PMStark


I suggest to add:
1. some ammo ability - strafe, barrage, smoke or samething like that. Commander is too MP intensive currently.
2. What about upgrade for 251 HT which would make it a ostheer mortar HT? Commander ability stays as it is but add a upgrade that HT can be changed in mortar ht (for X ammo) but looses their core abilities to reinforce and heal. Mobile indirect fire would make this unit better more desirable. Again it would be inspired by PanzerElite concept.

But generally imo it's really good commander design. GJ


Smoke sounds good yes.

And I also thought about the 221 and Halftrack upgrades, originally the 223 would have been a 221 which could be upgraded to the 222 or 223 (with the antenna on top), and the Halftrack would have been the unarmed 250 capable of upgrading to an MG42, mortar or "ambulance" (new upgrade would allow the setup of the halftrack in both friendly and enemy territory to reinforce and heal infantry, like the USF Ambulance but a bit more armored and could setup in enemy territory like I said).

The problem is that then the doctrine is too versatile and would become OP since it would cover enough for an additional commander probably due to the light vehicle upgrades.

So instead of like, the Repair and Recovery 251 Halftrack (which could be an upgrade for the 251 that comes with the Mech Group) you would get smoke as you said.

But, this is for an entirely new commander, altho the 223 is a good idea for the Overwatch doctrine as you said, I had no idea that he was talking about Elite Armor.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2018, 13:18 PMSmartie


You have a good point in saying that American Soldiers ideas should complemented with ammo based abilities. I also think that the Radio Car does fit a lot better to the Overwatch doctrin.

So i would suggest:
1. Panzer Tactitian (imo a must for this doctrine;)
2. 250 Halftrack Mechanized Group with Obersoldaten (Im sticking here to my idea)
3. Breakthrough / improved Panzer Commander
4. Jagdpanzer 38(t) "Hetzer"
5. Tiger I

Now you have 2 ammo based and 3 fuel based abilities.


Just for the record the doctrine is called "Elite Armor" and not "Panzer Elite".

This is the Panzer Elite: http://companyofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Panzer_Elite

And it's based on the Panzer Lehr Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Lehr_Division) and somewhat the II SS Panzer Corps (which was involved in Operation Market Garden, the Panzer Lehr was not) that also had a lot of sub-regiments attached to it like Artillery and most importantly, Panzergrenadiers which are the German mechanized infantry.

So I don't know if you're using Google translate or something but I thought you wanted a new commander that was somewhat inspired by the CoH PE, and not suggesting a revamp of "Elite Armor".
21 Aug 2018, 16:38 PM
#71
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1



Just for the record the doctrine is called "Elite Armor" and not "Panzer Elite".


You're 100% right, i confused Panzer Elite with Elite Armor, my bad. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
24 Aug 2018, 07:11 AM
#72
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

Overwatch doctrine

Foward receivers+early warnig = foward overwatch(1cp)


SdKfz 251/20 Half-track w/ Infrared Serchlight(3cp)

251/20 is very OP unit as default unit of OKW

OKW can overwatch cheap and easily all over the map

so this unit need to be only commander unit


24 Aug 2018, 08:26 AM
#73
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2018, 07:11 AMblancat
Overwatch doctrine

Foward receivers+early warnig = foward overwatch(1cp)


SdKfz 251/20 Half-track w/ Infrared Serchlight(3cp)

251/20 is very OP unit as default unit of OKW

OKW can overwatch cheap and easily all over the map

so this unit need to be only commander unit



I agree non doc hacks for 5 fuel is bad design especialy in 4vs4
This unit should be doctrinal
24 Aug 2018, 09:38 AM
#74
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

If anything is going to be removed something should be added instead
24 Aug 2018, 11:02 AM
#75
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Aug 2018, 09:38 AMStark
If anything is going to be removed something should be added instead


223 Command Car, can capture territory and setup to lock it down, same as the PE from CoH.

Keeps the OKW unique while allowing them to get more resources without relying on the Wehrmacht to do it all of the time but of course, for a price.
26 Aug 2018, 15:42 PM
#76
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 186 | Subs: 2

Sturm Doctrine:

Assault Package 0CP

Sturm offizier 1CP

Stuka Smoke Reconnaissance 2CP

Valiant assault 6CP

Sturm Tiger 11CP

This doctrine is about breaking the enemy lines with brute force at close range.


OstTruppen Reserves Doctrine:

OstTruppen Squad (same as OST one) 0CP

Thorough Salvage 0cp

MG42 Machinegun Team (same as OST one) 0CP

Jagdpanzer 38(t)/STuG 3 G 5CP (If it is impossible to recode the hetzer just give them a STuG)

High Explosive Anti-Tank(Heat) Shells 7CP

This doctrine is about using eastern front units to fill up gaps in your line and your build.

The Osttruppen give you a cheap unit that you can sacrifice if you need to without a huge manpower hit like the other okw infantry. They also can be used late game a salvaging units if they get outclassed.

The MG42 gives you a good MG that will allow you to control the flow of battle better during the early stages of the game.

Jagdpanzer 38(t)/STuG 3 G gives you a more TD like alternative to pumas and luchs. The heat shells will inshure their late game usefulness
27 Aug 2018, 20:15 PM
#77
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1



223 Command Car, can capture territory and setup to lock it down, same as the PE from CoH.

Keeps the OKW unique while allowing them to get more resources without relying on the Wehrmacht to do it all of the time but of course, for a price.


sold ;)
27 Aug 2018, 21:43 PM
#78
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Aug 2018, 20:15 PMStark


sold ;)


Sadly the community dev team members don't think so lol.
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