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OKW COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

20 Jul 2018, 16:24 PM
#1
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5433 | Subs: 32

Please use this thread to discuss or submit ideas for the OKW Commander Revamp
If you want to submit a full proposal, here are a few guidelines.

  • Please choose commanders that you feel can realistically become competitive with a few good changes. Some commanders are probably beyond redemption at this point.
  • Reminder that all proposed changes, must be preexisting units or abilities currently in the live game.
  • Suggested changes should not detract from the commanders given theme.
  • Please provide the rationale behind your proposed changes, and how they will improve said commander.
  • Where applicable, provide costs, CP values, or other details regarding particular change(s)

We’re aiming to revamp two commanders per faction. In some instances, the same commanders are going to see a lot of similar ideas. In that case, maybe skip adding another full proposal, and instead get involved in the conversation about how best to make said commander work.
20 Jul 2018, 18:40 PM
#2
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

I think Elite Armor doctrine and Overwatch Doctrine were voted for most. I don't have much experience with Overwatch so I won't mention that one.

As for Elite Armor: the doctrine overal isn't that bad but needs a few tweaks to make it more viable compared to other doctrines.


2CP) Signal Relay
  • This ability isn't bad but it generally isn't particularily useful either (at least not in team games) and when ammunition is scarce it's definitely not a priority to spend munis on.
  • Could use some minor tweaks like lower cost and longer duration.
  • Could also be made into passive vehicle tank awareness, which spots enemy vehicles in FOW on the minimap and tactical map within XX meter radius of friendly vehicles.


4CP) Emergency Repairs
  • This ability isn't practical at all. It takes too long to repair critical damage (I think it takes 15 seconds) which means it can only be used in safe positions, making it extremely situational.
  • Either reduce critical damage repair time drastically;
  • Or turn ability into a passive self-repair like the similar Soviet ability. This would make the doctrine more attractive for heavy vehicle based builds because it frees up Sturmpioneers for tasks other than repairing.


7CP) HEAT Shells
  • This ability is fine. Greatly increases damage output of tanks for a cost-effective amount of munis.
  • Perhaps customize the ability duration time to match vehicle ROF. I think this would be OP as a passive ability.


8CP) Panzer Commander
  • This ability needs to be overhauled in order to be worth it over the pintle mounted MG. Needs to give more vision and perhaps an accuracy bonus. Or maybe give it a significant bonus to veterancy gain (like 20-30% faster veterancy).
  • The artillery call-in takes way too long to land making it nearly useless. It either needs more range or it needs to activate quicker. If so, maybe change it to a light artillery barrage.


11CP) Sturmtiger
  • IMO this vehicle is fine the way it is right now, difficult to use but can be very effective.
  • Veterancy requirements need to be looked at though. Unless it's constantly hitting vehicles it just doesn't vet up at all really.
  • Maybe switch Sturmtiger with Special Operations Doctrine's Command Panther. This would make more sense to both doctrines. Command Panther might be OP with HEAT shells and mark target ability combined, though.
20 Jul 2018, 18:40 PM
#3
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

I guess I'll start off this topic by again going by the statistics by the previously mentioned topic.

Elite Armor:

Currently it's 2 major underwhelming abilities are the Panzer Commander and Critical Repairs compared to their counterpart abilities in other Armies so they should be brought up to the same level as many other people have already suggested.

Signal Relay and HEAT rounds are good I guess for what they provide, however I think that HEAT rounds should either become a passive or have a longer time since their effect is more often not noticeable because of again, it's short timer.

And lastly, the Sturmtiger doesn't really make sense to be in a doctrine centered around Elite Panzers, but something like a Command Panther would, at least in my opinion.

Overwatch Doctrine:

A bit of an entirely underwhelming commander to say the least except for perhaps the Goliaths which are probably the number one use for this ability, apart from trolling with it of course.

So to kick things up a notch I suggest a special reconnaissance unit such as the Jaegers but with the Panzerfusiliers' flares ability to replace "For the Fatherland" since as it stands it's really weird to have a defensive type ability in a commander centered around information and a unit which can give you information would fit in more.

Infiltration grenades would probably also be a good idea here unless Sector Assault is replaced with something more defensive like Sector Overwatch from the Fortifications Doctrine where your sight can actually be used to more use.

Apart from that I really don't have anymore suggestions, this commander is just weird at least to me so I have no idea why it's the 2nd picked commander in need of a revamp after Elite Armor, I picked Breakthrough as I really think that something should be done with Panzerfusiliers flat out replacing Volksgrenadiers, the Sturmoffizer being useless or at least underwhelming because of it's retreat mechanic and the Jagdtiger being an overpriced Elefant right now, whose spot would probably be a better fit for the Sturmtiger, a vehicle actually made for the assault role, hence "Breakthrough Doctrine", not Panzerfusiliers scout for my nerfed Jagdtiger but I hope you don't retreat when my offizier dies doctrine.
20 Jul 2018, 18:46 PM
#4
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

Im not sure how people would think but id just throw sturmtiger the hell out of this doctrine and give it regular tiger for choice instead of king or command panther.
20 Jul 2018, 20:48 PM
#5
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2153 | Subs: 15

Change these units between commanders:


Sturmtiger ----> Breakthrough Doctrine
Panther Commander -----> Elite Armored Doctrine
Jagdtiger -----> Special Operations Doctrine


Give Goliath to Special Operations Doctrine
20 Jul 2018, 21:41 PM
#6
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jul 2018, 20:48 PMnigo
Change these units between commanders:


Sturmtiger ----> Breakthrough Doctrine
Panther Commander -----> Elite Armored Doctrine
Jagdtiger -----> Special Operations Doctrine


Give Goliath to Special Operations Doctrine


Agreed, thinking about it now swapping these units around makes much more sense about the themes of all 3(4?) of these commanders.

Question is what to replace the Goliath with instead in Overwatch since it's what basically the doctrine is only used for right now, maybe that Funkwagen 223 that can siphon resources from the enemy like the PE one from SnakeEye's All Units Mod, or maybe it can lock down in a sector to act as a command/recon vehicle of sorts like again the PE 223. That's also a good nostalgic idea.
20 Jul 2018, 22:26 PM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jul 2018, 20:48 PMnigo

Jagdtiger -----> Special Operations Doctrine


I think Jagdtiger would be pretty OP with Special Operation's flares ability.
Panzerfusiliers at least need to be at the front to launch their flare. And Breakthrough (G43s) is pretty munitions heavy so flares aren't abundantly available in the first place. Spec Ops usually floats in munitions if things go well so arty flares could be dropped all the time to spot for JT.
20 Jul 2018, 22:49 PM
#8
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2153 | Subs: 15



I think Jagdtiger would be pretty OP with Special Operation's flares ability.
Panzerfusiliers at least need to be at the front to launch their flare. And Breakthrough (G43s) is pretty munitions heavy so flares aren't abundantly available in the first place. Spec Ops usually floats in munitions if things go well so arty flares could be dropped all the time to spot for JT.



Flares to Overwatch
Goliath to Special Ops


New Overwatch without Goliath

0 - (PASSIVE) Forward Receivers
sWS Supply Half-tracks are equipped with forward receivers that are deployed once they have set up in a location.

4 - Artillery Flares
Flares are fired at the target location, revealing the area.

5 - (PASSIVE) Spotting Scope
Unlocks an upgrade on vehicles that equips the commander with spotting scopes, allowing them to see farther when the vehicle is stationary.

10 - (PASSIVE) Veteran leFH 18 Artillery
Sturmpioneers can construct 10.5cm field howitzer emplacements which start with veteran crews and have the ability to overwatch and counter-battery.

12 - Zeroing Artillery
Automatically attacks visible enemy units in the target area. Artillery rate of fire ramps up the longer the target is visible.




New Special Operations Doctrine with Goliath and JT.


0 - Radio Silent Assault
When activated, all units are hidden on the enemy mini-map and infantry units move more quickly.

1 - (PASSIVE) Ambush Camouflage
Volksgrenadiers, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten and MG34s can be upgraded with better camouflage, concealing them in cover and deep snow.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infrared StG44
Obersoldaten squads can be upgraded with StG44's equipped with infrared scopes. These weapons are more effective against units in cover.

5 - (PASSIVE) Goliath
Remote-controlled explosive devices, Goliaths can deliver a massive payload of explosives without ever putting your troops in danger. Can be built at any stationed sWS…

17 - Tiger B 'Jagdtiger' Panzerjäger
The intimidating 'Jagdtiger' Panzerjäger Tiger Ausf. B with its 128mm PaK 44 can be deployed to the battlefield. This unit has immense range and damage against vehicles.
21 Jul 2018, 05:31 AM
#9
avatar of thomasagray

Posts: 135

Permanently Banned
For Elite Armored Doctrine:

HEAT Shells unlocks a new ability for the Walking Stuka Halftrack: HEAT rocket creeping barrage. This trades explosive radius and demolishing capability for reduced scatter and increased damage and penetration against armor. Costs 60 munitions.
21 Jul 2018, 08:00 AM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Also as part of the revamp would it be possible to fix Breakthrough Doctrine's Assault Artillery? This is a pretty underwelming ability right now because half the shells actually land (way) outside the targeted sector.

I tested it and as you can see in the image below, it even seems like more shells landed OUTSIDE the sector than landed inside it. This greatly limits its effectiveness and generally makes it just a waste of 200 munis.

21 Jul 2018, 13:55 PM
#11
avatar of Ægion
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 750 | Subs: 2

Overwatch
This is probably by far the weakest of OKW Doctrines. I do not like the squad wipe nature of the Goliath I would not mind seeing it go. Forward Receivers are quite poor, so I would not mind having it go either. Overwatch is a term for firing and counter firing so Overwatch should be a bit more defensive in nature.

1 CP: Early Warning
2 CP: For the Fatherland
2 CP: 223 Radio Scout Car
8 CP: Lefh 18
10 Cp: Sector Assault

223 Radio Scout Car
I would have this unit function like the Ostheer's Arty Officer
-240 Manpower, 30 Fuel
-Off Map Smoke
-Coordinated fire
All Lefh 18 and Stukas (not in a line) will fire at target location (beyond max range)
-Passive Detection in a large radius
-No aura abilitys
-Limit of 1 on the field
21 Jul 2018, 13:57 PM
#12
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

don't murder goliath
21 Jul 2018, 18:45 PM
#13
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jul 2018, 22:49 PMnigo



Flares to Overwatch
Goliath to Special Ops


New Overwatch without Goliath

0 - (PASSIVE) Forward Receivers
sWS Supply Half-tracks are equipped with forward receivers that are deployed once they have set up in a location.

4 - Artillery Flares
Flares are fired at the target location, revealing the area.

5 - (PASSIVE) Spotting Scope
Unlocks an upgrade on vehicles that equips the commander with spotting scopes, allowing them to see farther when the vehicle is stationary.

10 - (PASSIVE) Veteran leFH 18 Artillery
Sturmpioneers can construct 10.5cm field howitzer emplacements which start with veteran crews and have the ability to overwatch and counter-battery.

12 - Zeroing Artillery
Automatically attacks visible enemy units in the target area. Artillery rate of fire ramps up the longer the target is visible.




New Special Operations Doctrine with Goliath and JT.


0 - Radio Silent Assault
When activated, all units are hidden on the enemy mini-map and infantry units move more quickly.

1 - (PASSIVE) Ambush Camouflage
Volksgrenadiers, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten and MG34s can be upgraded with better camouflage, concealing them in cover and deep snow.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infrared StG44
Obersoldaten squads can be upgraded with StG44's equipped with infrared scopes. These weapons are more effective against units in cover.

5 - (PASSIVE) Goliath
Remote-controlled explosive devices, Goliaths can deliver a massive payload of explosives without ever putting your troops in danger. Can be built at any stationed sWS…

17 - Tiger B 'Jagdtiger' Panzerjäger
The intimidating 'Jagdtiger' Panzerjäger Tiger Ausf. B with its 128mm PaK 44 can be deployed to the battlefield. This unit has immense range and damage against vehicles.


Dear lord sturmpioneers with camo. Id love to troll with it
21 Jul 2018, 19:54 PM
#14
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jul 2018, 22:49 PMnigo

Flares to Overwatch
Goliath to Special Ops


New Overwatch without Goliath

[…]


New Special Operations Doctrine with Goliath and JT.

[…]


I do like these changes but I wouldn't want Special Operations to be one of the two overhauled commanders. Elite Armor needs it way more.
21 Jul 2018, 23:08 PM
#15
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2153 | Subs: 15

Panther Command ----> Elite Armored
Sturmtiger ----> Special Ops



Elite Armored Doctrine with Panther Command



2 - (PASSIVE) Panzer Tactician
All armored vehicles get an ability which uses equipped smoke dischargers to prevent themselves from being seen.

2- Signal Relay
Boosting signal range briefly reveals enemy vehicles on the minimap.

3 - Breakthrough
Slightly improves the speed of all vehicle units and allows them to neutralize points rapidly and then capture them.

4 - (PASSIVE) Panzer Commander
The Panzer IV, Panther & King Tiger can be upgraded with a Panzer Commander that can survey the battlefield and call in coordinated artillery strikes. This Panzer Commander can order Emergency Repairs, HEAT shells and use the Spotting Scope.

12 - Panther Command Tank
An elite Panther leader can be deployed to the battle, improving the sight and movement of vehicles.





Special Operations Doctrine with ST.


0 - Radio Silent Assault
When activated, all units are hidden on the enemy mini-map and infantry units move more quickly.

1 - (PASSIVE) Ambush Camouflage
Volksgrenadiers, Sturmpioneers, Obersoldaten and MG34s can be upgraded with better camouflage, concealing them in cover and deep snow.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infiltration Tactics
Infantry who are kept out of combat for long periods of time will gain the ability to surprise assault with a special grenade attack.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infrared StG44
Obersoldaten squads can be upgraded with StG44's equipped with infrared scopes. These weapons are more effective against units in cover.

12 - 'Sturmtiger' Heavy Assault Gun
The Sturmmörserwagen 606/4 mit 38cm RW 61, more commonly known as the 'Sturmtiger', is an assault vehicle capable of firing a 376kg rocket-assisted shell…
22 Jul 2018, 04:39 AM
#16
avatar of Wreathlit Noël
Donator 11

Posts: 168

There are really 3 commanders that seem to need changes: Breakthrough, Overwatch and Elite Armor.

Breakthrough:

Breakthrough tactics - fine as is

Sturm Offizier (or w/e) - I heavily dislike him. He encourages blobbing, has expensive abilities, and is very badly punished by focus fire or just bad rng. The abilities can stay but the aura needs to be either heavily nerfed or removed so that the forced retreat can also be removed. Added veterancy would also be quite nice, but the veterancy can be about RA or buffing the price or impact of the abilities.

Panzerfüsiliers - fine as is

Assault Artillery - It would be best to change this into a targeted ability rather than just on a sector as it seems to always just be around the point anyways and not spread out much. Requiring sight should offset this.

Jagdtiger - I never thought this made much sense in this doctrine. It doesn't help assaults. It would be better off in the Overwatch Doctrine for what role it fills. It's replacement could be more assault-based abilities like Valiant Assault or Infiltration Tactics.

Overwatch:

Forward Receivers, Goliath, Early Warning - these three could be lumped together into something called "Overwatch Operations." This would free up two slots for something more useful.

I would suggest the Jagdtiger take up one of the free slots since it doesn't move much from the area that it is needed in and overwatches the area in front of it. The other ability is uncertain to me. Artillery flares or Signal Relay may make sense but the doctrine already has many munitions sinks. Defensive Operations would also make some thematic sense but is already in two doctrines.

For the Fatherland - seems fine, may need some tuning

Sector Assault - seems very inconsistent for the massive cost. It should either be replaced or improved to be more reliable to break up assaults.


Elite Armor:

Signal Relay - fine as is

Emergency Repairs - It's very underwhelming for what you pay for. It would probably be best as either a full crew repair or something much more seamless.

HEAT rounds - fine as is

Panzer Commander - This guy is super underwhelming compared to the MG upgrade. The vision buff is barely noticeable and the artillery barrage is super expensive and takes forever to drop just for a mere 4 shells. He could either have much better buffs and artillery or act more like the Brit designate command tank ability.

Sturmtiger - It seems nearly impossible to balance this thing just right. It's either way too good or way too bad. Any of the call-in tanks from any of the other doctrines would be an improvement
22 Jul 2018, 08:10 AM
#17
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Overwatch Doctrine

- merge Forward Recievers and Early Warnings into one ability to make space
- add jäger light infantry, they they go well with the recon theme of the doctrine
- remove For the Fatherland ability, it has no place in this doctrine and replace it with Ost Recon overflight
- Add Jagdtiger

So new doctrine is:
0 CP - Goliath
1 CP - Forward Recievers and Early warnings merged
2 CP - Jäger Light Infantry
10 CP - Sector Arty
15 CP - Jagdtiger

Theme of the doctrine is recon and stealth (goliath, jäger light infantry, forward recievers and early warnings) and to make it viable late game you get Jagdtiger that would benefit heavily from the extra recon and Sector Arty to deal with clusters.
22 Jul 2018, 10:55 AM
#18
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Breakthrough Doctrine

0 CP - Brummbär (T4 required)
0 CP - Breakthrough Tactics
2 CP - Panzerfüsiliere
2 CP - Stuka Smoke Bomb (the one from ostheer)
12 CP - Assault Artillery

The smoke bomb can be used to help breaking through enemy lines so I find it fitting. Blob officer shouldn´t be in the game that´s why he was deleted. I would put Jagdtiger into Overwatch doctrine as posted before. That´s why it gets replaced with Brummbär. OKW lacks AI tanks non-doctrinally so it would be nice to have another doctrine with a dedicated AI tank. Brummbär is also a breakthrough tank (Sturmpanzer), so it fits perfectly with the name/theme of the doctrine.
22 Jul 2018, 10:59 AM
#19
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201

Breakthrough Doctrine
cp0 mg34 for evryone
cp5 jagtiger
cp6 command pamther
cp10 stuka strike
cp11 old sturmtiger
22 Jul 2018, 13:57 PM
#20
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 567

Breakthrough Doctrine
cp0 mg34 for evryone
cp5 jagtiger
cp6 command pamther
cp10 stuka strike
cp11 old sturmtiger


Cp5 Jagdtiger?

Wat?
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