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SBP Change Notes

20 May 2018, 19:43 PM
#81
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 821 | Subs: 1





how about we standardize veterancy for line infantry to 30% 23% def for everyone?

As if there wasnt already way too much mirroring.
Especially some of the changes during this patch were already a way too high cost payed in uniqueness, for (not much better) balance
20 May 2018, 19:46 PM
#82
avatar of chipwreckt

Posts: 725

USF AA-HT not targeting Ostheer aircraft in my last game. Can someone confirm its kapoet?

20 May 2018, 19:48 PM
#83
avatar of swordfisch

Posts: 138

Yeah sure we can make StG side tech, so long as volks scale as well as rifles :)


Well if you want to go that direction we can look at cons being buffed to volks as they lack free snare and free flame nade. They also scale bad...

It's hardly the end of the world for OKW if volks have to pay a cost for their many utilities (free nade, free snare, free StG, free 5 man, free healing with vet).

20 May 2018, 20:11 PM
#84
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3729 | Subs: 1



Well if you want to go that direction we can look at cons being buffed to volks as they lack free snare and free flame nade. They also scale bad...

It's hardly the end of the world for OKW if volks have to pay a cost for their many utilities (free nade, free snare, free StG, free 5 man, free healing with vet).



Jesus lord will any of you people learn one day. EVERY FACTION HAS FREE AND ASYMMETRIC SHIT. Free squads on USF, 6 men on soviets, Oorah!, Bolster on brits, Riflenades from BP1, Flamenades from truck, Give OKW a free volk with their tech we can talk about adding side tech to nades.
20 May 2018, 20:50 PM
#85
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



Nope. Balance team would never go for standarized vet.


ironically they are standarizing everything. veterancy is really one of the least visible aspect of the game.


As if there wasnt already way too much mirroring.
Especially some of the changes during this patch were already a way too high cost payed in uniqueness, for (not much better) balance


how else would you make the line infantry veterancy unique and still balanced?

jp4 and FF veterancy are different, but I would say they are still "equivalent". FF offer more offensive bonus and JP4 offer more defensive bonus. Some people are obsess with the 40 bonus damage on the FF without taking into account the whole package.

right now rifleman vet is basically outright better than volks and grenadier.

"asymmetric" doesn't mean making one side overpowered.

right now the rifleman vet is 30% acc, 15% def + 23% def. that extra 15% def basically wipe away the extra acc bonus on the grenadiers.

alternative: 1.3 x .77 = 1.001 (rifleman vs gren)

1.4 x .77 x .93 = 1.002
20 May 2018, 21:11 PM
#86
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3729 | Subs: 1



ironically they are standarizing everything. veterancy is really one of the least visible aspect of the game.



how else would you make the line infantry veterancy unique and still balanced?

jp4 and FF veterancy are different, but I would say they are still "equivalent". FF offer more offensive bonus and JP4 offer more defensive bonus. Some people are obsess with the 40 bonus damage on the FF without taking into account the whole package.

right now rifleman vet is basically outright better than volks and grenadier.

"asymmetric" doesn't mean making one side overpowered.

right now the rifleman vet is 30% acc, 15% def + 23% def. that extra 15% def basically wipe away the extra acc bonus on the grenadiers.

alternative: 1.3 x .77 = 1.001 (rifleman vs gren)

1.4 x .77 x .93 = 1.002


I've been trying for them to standardize OKW vet for 2 years. Will never happen.
20 May 2018, 21:42 PM
#87
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



I've been trying for them to standardize OKW vet for 2 years. Will never happen.


they've actually standard volks and okw veterancy to a large degree. the total combat bonus at vet 5 is 30% and 22.6 def. vet 4 and vet 5 are sight and heal. It's basically identical to the old rifleman vet before the terminator.

this is exactly what I meant when I said veterancy bonus is one of the least visible part of the game.

I think another compromise is to provide every line infantry with the 30% accu 23% def, and then diverse on other benefit not directly tied to combat. volks already have self healing and sight.
20 May 2018, 21:58 PM
#88
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3729 | Subs: 1



they've actually standard volks and okw veterancy to a large degree. the total combat bonus at vet 5 is 30% and 22.6 def. vet 4 and vet 5 are sight and heal. It's basically identical to the old rifleman vet before the terminator.

this is exactly what I meant when I said veterancy bonus is one of the least visible part of the game.

I think another compromise is to provide every line infantry with the 30% accu 23% def, and then diverse on other benefit not directly tied to combat. volks already have self healing and sight.


Pointing out how much % a unit gains isn't very helpful without a base stat. 30% of 1 is 0.3. 30% of 200 of 60.
21 May 2018, 01:59 AM
#89
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3013

Move the flame grenade to the Sturm pios and give volks a regular model 24 stick grenade. The end result would be bills that still have a way to fight cover, but isn’t as potent as a flame grenade and OKW now has one dedicated flame unit like the other faction.

End result: OKW has a single flame weapon unit tied to their engineer unit like the other faction and they have a grenade on their mainline infantry like the other factions. This makes OKW early game slightly weaker to counter by cover and buildings, which encourages positional play, without changing unit stats, timings or scaling.

It would also retain factional differences in the how a flame weapon is implemented, but standardize that engineer units are the dedicated flame weapon users and building clearing infantry. Other counters to static play still apply.

Yes please.
21 May 2018, 02:16 AM
#90
avatar of swordfisch

Posts: 138



Jesus lord will any of you people learn one day. EVERY FACTION HAS FREE AND ASYMMETRIC SHIT. Free squads on USF, 6 men on soviets, Oorah!, Bolster on brits, Riflenades from BP1, Flamenades from truck, Give OKW a free volk with their tech we can talk about adding side tech to nades.


So a flak cannon that locks down your cutoff isn't good enough?

What logic is there in giving Volks every utility just for one tech structure?

If you could actually read my post I had already pointed out every faction has their free perks, but volks get all of them. Calm down and attempt to read before chimping out at other users please, yes even if you disagree with them.
21 May 2018, 02:24 AM
#91
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3729 | Subs: 1



So a flak cannon that locks down your cutoff isn't good enough?

What logic is there in giving Volks every utility just for one tech structure?

If you could actually read my post I had already pointed out every faction has their free perks, but volks get all of them. Calm down and attempt to read before chimping out at other users please.


being able to move the building outside of base territoy isn't free. its paid for in the truck cost of 100mp and 15F. Not to mention different starting resource counts for some reason.

What logic is there in giving rifles the ability to outscale axis infantry with 2x upgrades? 5 man is also a USF trait and soviets have it even better. tbh I'd rather be looking into 5 man brit squads and ostheer squads.

I've gone over this argument for over 2 years. It's the same thing every month. "This faction gets this free! Where my free stuff!" But then you have people, (sometimes the same poeple ironically) saying "Stop making everything the same its boring!"

As I said before, every faction gets something for free. Want to know what volks DON'T get for free? Lategame scaling of allied units. Infact no one gets that for free, but volks don't have it AT ALL.

21 May 2018, 02:43 AM
#92
avatar of swordfisch

Posts: 138

Not to mention different starting resource counts for some reason.

Probably because OKW start off with a SP that is a tad more expensive than a rear echelon, iirc this is what makes the MP difference at the start.



What logic is there in giving rifles the ability to outscale axis infantry with 2x upgrades? 5 man is also a USF trait and soviets have it even better. tbh I'd rather be looking into 5 man brit squads and ostheer squads.



There's a good reason for this, USF by design lack elite infantry that Obers/Pgrens/Penals provide. They also lack a sniper to deal with those non-doc terminators. Hence their vet 3 is a little better by the time these units are on the field.

2x upgrades if you look at the stats are not as simple as you make them out, compare the MG42 or MG34 to the current tommy bren and you will see a big difference in DPS in favour of the german guns.


I've gone over this argument for over 2 years. It's the same thing every month. "This faction gets this free! Where my free stuff!" But then you have people, (sometimes the same poeple ironically) saying "Stop making everything the same its boring!"


If I had things my way they would have kept some form of AT upgrade and their old RA vet, but we were dumped with StG's as a kneejerk reaction and then the flame nade because at the time flak halftrack did nothing vs garrisons, doctrinal sturm flamers did not exist and ISG smoke wasn't a thing. (the ISG was also pretty overpriced back in the day).

But now OKW have been given tool after tool while allied early game has seen a steady stream of "adjustments" (Rear echelon nerf, recent WASP nerf, penal nerf, royal engineer nerf I could go on). But here we are and OKW have these tools, that's fine but they should pay for at least one of them.
21 May 2018, 03:22 AM
#93
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3729 | Subs: 1


Probably because OKW start off with a SP that is a tad more expensive than a rear echelon, iirc this is what makes the MP difference at the start.

Fuel is the bigger concern. OKW starting at 5, USF at 15 and Brits at 20. MP is more easily explained, as seen above ^


There's a good reason for this, USF by design lack elite infantry that Obers/Pgrens/Penals provide. They also lack a sniper to deal with those non-doc terminators. Hence their vet 3 is a little better by the time these units are on the field.

2x upgrades if you look at the stats are not as simple as you make them out, compare the MG42 or MG34 to the current tommy bren and you will see a big difference in DPS in favour of the german guns.

That'd be fine, if the elites came out to contest their vet while they're still obtaining it. By the time obers actually hit the field rifles are mainly vet 2 sometimes vet 3 and racks are already unlocked and squads are being given BARs. Making vet 0 obers vs upgraded infantry a larger struggle than need be. Yes the LMG42/34 are better than the allied counterparts, hence why they can only get 1.


If I had things my way they would have kept some form of AT upgrade and their old RA vet, but we were dumped with StG's as a kneejerk reaction and then the flame nade because at the time flak halftrack did nothing vs garrisons, doctrinal sturm flamers did not exist and ISG smoke wasn't a thing. (the ISG was also pretty overpriced back in the day).

But now OKW have been given tool after tool while allied early game has seen a steady stream of "adjustments" (Rear echelon nerf, recent WASP nerf, penal nerf, royal engineer nerf I could go on). But here we are and OKW have these tools, that's fine but they should pay for at least one of them.


OKW wouldn't need these tools if every faction had nondoctrinal tools, specifically flamethrowers. Instead we have lava grenade, and up until a few days ago, no indirect to clear garrisons well. (You had smoke yes, but dropping a flame nade in a garrison doesn't help too much when a 2x BAR rifle comes out and is ontop of you.)
21 May 2018, 07:46 AM
#94
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2018, 04:14 AMRosbone
OKW without nades would be a massive joke in team games. Flame nades do not kill anyone they force them to move which creates a scramble allowing OKW to have a chance against MGs. If anything, get rid of the nades that wipe a whole squad since there is a 4 second lag some games.

If a squad is in a building, they are not taking territory in a 1v1. That seems crucial. Squad in building = more resources for you. Comes down to map making so buildings are not on top of important points.


lol

squad in a building = defending an already occupied territory. you don´t need to cap a terrritory that is already of your onw, that´s why you put the squad in the building, to defend the territory you got before....


so yeah, you can cap the normal point that no one is deffending in the square of the map, but the important fuel or muni point is being deffended by an squad in a building...so if you want to stole that resource or slow down the tech race of your enemy, you will need to clear that building and get that fuel point.

21 May 2018, 09:17 AM
#95
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2488 | Subs: 4

I love this discussion about flame nades being the ultimate garrison clearer when all it does is force the squad outside and maybe kill a model, while USF, UKF and guards have nuke grenades that usually kill at least 4 models or do 75% health damage instantly. Not to mention penals that usually blow up the entire building with a satchel. You don't hear anyone complain about that though.
21 May 2018, 10:25 AM
#96
avatar of Kurfürst

Posts: 144

Yeah Volks flame Granade is somehow a problem, Penal satchel that is basically 90% guarateed wipe against mg in building is not.
21 May 2018, 13:56 PM
#97
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 821 | Subs: 1

Yeah Volks flame Granade is somehow a problem, Penal satchel that is basically 90% guarateed wipe against mg in building is not.

The satchel timer still takes longer than a depacking of an MG, so...
21 May 2018, 14:11 PM
#98
avatar of Kurfürst

Posts: 144

… so all you have to do is drop it at the door.
21 May 2018, 14:15 PM
#99
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

… so all you have to do is drop it at the door.


Then don't leave out that door.
21 May 2018, 14:15 PM
#100
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2869 | Subs: 1

Buildings have 2 doors minimum.
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