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russian armor

SU-76

16 Apr 2018, 20:57 PM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15450 | Subs: 7



StuG Life - I don't understand the reference to AAA Account.

Katitof : His idea is stupid.
It's an idea. All they do is clamor for everything allied to be nerfed.
I do agree on a few points, but ultimately, it'd be nice to keep the unit
viable. Otherwise, might as well remove 80% of units in the game and only
keep the end units.

Well, its not really a reason to take it to the other extreme.
SU-76 is and always should be TD, its barrage is an addition to make the unit correct to what soviets used, people complaining its too weak are mad, people complaining its too strong are equally insane, if you let opponent get critical mass of them, you should really reconsider your own unit choices and how you use them.

SU76 already has low health, low armor, bad mobility, horrendous pathing,
no MG, no HE (save barrage) AND does less dmg (120)

Its a very good unit for its cost and it can still be very useful in late game, something I would like all light armor to end up as.

StuG has higher ROF, more health, more armor, an MG and higher dmg, for
comparative cost.

I wouldn't call that MG particularly useful, it can help, but its not going to kill anything on its own.
Other then that, StuG "overperforms" in exact same way SU-76 does, but is much more potent as a TD, while SU got less TD focus and that barrage support instead of raw TD firepower.

Zis-3 vs Pak40 : Same story. PAK40 is the better AT. But Zis-3 is a hybrid poor man's mortar.
(However, it does 160 dmg)

They both are same tier units, while StuG is tier above SU-76.
Sov T3 and ost T3 are not equal to each other, sov T3 is more of T2,5 and T4 is ost T3 equivalent.

I'd give the SU-76 160 dmg again, but lower the pen.

That would achieve nothing but make it stronger against lights.

As for the barrage, perhaps give it HE/AP ammo, like the Sherman.
Someone said that the Sherman's dual ammo was a nerf (whereas the
Panzer 4 had both better AP, and weaker but implied HE)(It's main
gun kills infantry well and he doesn't have to swap).

That's a bad idea, because that creates long range anti all unit, which is bad if its not limited doctrinally.

If we just listen to the fanboi, they'd be happy to have it removed
from the game entirely, or half health, half armor, -90% dmg -90% range.

The fanboys and other one faction warriors are rather easy to identify and completely ignore.
Devs might have listened to vocal minority in the past, but modders don't. I actually do not have a slightest idea what directs modders choices on what to change and why.
16 Apr 2018, 21:24 PM
#22
avatar of Mcq_knight

Posts: 43

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Apr 2018, 20:24 PMKatitof

Because extremely inaccurate, 90 second cooldown ability makes unit AI....

I guess JT is overpowered too, because it always pens anything it hits and is AI unit as well!

edit: read the post you were replying to, I do agree with you, his idea is stupid and ISU already exists.


Dont pretend that once you get 3-4 76s they are not effective AI. If you consider Panther AI dps relevant this is case closed. Effective use of the barrage is devestating. And the accuracy is barrage is range dependant.

16 Apr 2018, 21:27 PM
#23
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Dont pretend that once you get 3-4 76s they are not effective AI. If you consider Panther AI dps relevant this is case closed. Effective use of the barrage is devestating. And the accuracy is barrage is range dependant.



You do realise that 3 su-76es cost around as much as Tiger or IS-2 and 4 cost much more than KT, right?
16 Apr 2018, 21:43 PM
#24
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4340



==========
That's because your bias is intense.

I was going for a swapping of stats, rebalance them. Take something, give something.
It's already got 120 dmg/shot. Which is the weakest in it's category. StuG does 160 dmg.
Would you like StuG dmg nerfed to 120/shot?

You don't want rebalance, you want straight nerf.

That's the game design. Allied TDs are more vulnerable and have more range.
Mind you, it used to have 320 health and the StuG had 400 health. Both were buffed.
Nerf one, other gets nerfed too.
They were balanced together.
ok i prpose to nerf the hp of green by 1 but buff the damage to 10000 and pen to 999999 acccuracy 2.0 done balanced
16 Apr 2018, 21:46 PM
#25
avatar of Mcq_knight

Posts: 43



You do realise that 3 su-76es cost around as much as Tiger or IS-2 and 4 cost much more than KT, right?


Yep, and used right they will force one off fairly easily. Add a few cons/penals and baby you got a stew.
16 Apr 2018, 22:11 PM
#26
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3656 | Subs: 1

16 Apr 2018, 23:07 PM
#27
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1



You do realise that 3 su-76es cost around as much as Tiger or IS-2 and 4 cost much more than KT, right?


Do you realise that there is thing called "snowballing" aswell as 3 su-76 can fight tigers and for sure 4 of them can fight KT, so I dont think your cost aurgument is relevent.

Its still doesnt justufy fact that 60 range, rather cheap TD has free AI barrage ability. Its kinda bad, sure, but at the same time range matters, since if you do it from the sight block or at mid\clode distance vs pinned squads its become very deadly. Not to mention random wipes and the fact that 2 or 3 of them can be destuctive and would deny ground for sure.

CoH gameplay and balance sometimes is like rock\paper\scissors for this reason TDs dont have ANY AI capabilities, aside from ISU but ISU has to switch ammo. Only SU76 is perfect TD for its cost, which has rather good AI barrage and I hardly doubt, that there are at least one good reason why such unit should have it.

StuG has range 50 and lower pen (maybe I'm mistaken here) and hight rof, and its still one of the most powerfull TDs, so I dont see any reason why SU-76 as it is, should have it. At very least barrage should be replaced with HE shot, like JT has.
16 Apr 2018, 23:55 PM
#28
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Do you realise that there is thing called "snowballing" aswell as 3 su-76 can fight tigers and for sure 4 of them can fight KT, so I dont think your cost aurgument is relevent.

Its still doesnt justufy fact that 60 range, rather cheap TD has free AI barrage ability. Its kinda bad, sure, but at the same time range matters, since if you do it from the sight block or at mid\clode distance vs pinned squads its become very deadly. Not to mention random wipes and the fact that 2 or 3 of them can be destuctive and would deny ground for sure.

CoH gameplay and balance sometimes is like rock\paper\scissors for this reason TDs dont have ANY AI capabilities, aside from ISU but ISU has to switch ammo. Only SU76 is perfect TD for its cost, which has rather good AI barrage and I hardly doubt, that there are at least one good reason why such unit should have it.

StuG has range 50 and lower pen (maybe I'm mistaken here) and hight rof, and its still one of the most powerfull TDs, so I dont see any reason why SU-76 as it is, should have it. At very least barrage should be replaced with HE shot, like JT has.


Following your logic JT is better now with less DPS but with an artillery ability becouse its not specialised AT. I'll suprise you: that was a huge nerf.

Surely, the barrage should not be free on su-76. But nerfing its range or penetration will go a long way in rendering the unit useless.

btw. JT has an ability that is pretty much what su-76 barrage is, just with cost, more range and better shells.
17 Apr 2018, 00:39 AM
#29
avatar of Mcq_knight

Posts: 43



Following your logic JT is better now with less DPS but with an artillery ability becouse its not specialised AT. I'll suprise you: that was a huge nerf.

Surely, the barrage should not be free on su-76. But nerfing its range or penetration will go a long way in rendering the unit useless.

btw. JT has an ability that is pretty much what su-76 barrage is, just with cost, more range and better shells.


Its not better. In no way.

with 3-4 76s you can wipe a weapon team or alpha strike a blob. It is very reliable with numbers and experience, while the JT AI is a gimmick given to justify a nerf.

As many have said higher tier armour should have more of an impact against them. A small pen nerf with a marginal cost for the barrage would go a long way.
17 Apr 2018, 00:42 AM
#30
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4090 | Subs: 1

Reducing its pen slightly wouldnt be an issue if it retains its barrage, it would still have a use after its primary role has become less efficient (panthers and tigers and the like hit the field) as long as it doesnt drop to its old blasted 140 point blank and 120 at far itll be fine. I think ~150/160 at max would be good. It would still pen most non heavies reasonably frequently, the p4 could bounce on occasion but far from reliably. The barrage gets ~60mu barrage that is reduced at vet 1... Could work fine.
17 Apr 2018, 05:02 AM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15450 | Subs: 7



Its not better. In no way.

with 3-4 76s you can wipe a weapon team or alpha strike a blob. It is very reliable with numbers and experience, while the JT AI is a gimmick given to justify a nerf.


If you're using 200+ fuel multiple units on a singular MG, there better be nothing left out of it.

17 Apr 2018, 06:13 AM
#32
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 147

I'm seeing little mention of SU85. The thing is SU76 is not the end of the line Soviet TD. And yet it still seems to perform better, has more utility, mobility and lower tech tier than its bigger counterpart. If this peculiar comparison is ignored and the fact that Soviets have two non-doctrinal TDs is forgotten I fear vital facts will be intentionally/unintentionally left out of the argument.

(Feel free to check out my SU76 vs SU85 comparison automatch replays where 3 SU76s took down an Elephant head on with no mark target and easily won. If that does not count as peculiar indeed I don't know what does. Also the brutality of the massed barrages with no real reaction time can be seen demonstrated)
17 Apr 2018, 09:06 AM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15450 | Subs: 7

I'm seeing little mention of SU85. The thing is SU76 is not the end of the line Soviet TD. And yet it still seems to perform better, has more utility, mobility and lower tech tier than its bigger counterpart. If this peculiar comparison is ignored and the fact that Soviets have two non-doctrinal TDs is forgotten I fear vital facts will be intentionally/unintentionally left out of the argument.

(Feel free to check out my SU76 vs SU85 comparison automatch replays where 3 SU76s took down an Elephant head on with no mark target and easily won. If that does not count as peculiar indeed I don't know what does. Also the brutality of the massed barrages with no real reaction time can be seen demonstrated)


You don't see mentions of SU-85 because there is not much to mention here.

It was made bad vs meds and shifted from all round TD to a heavy tank specific counter.
Its less effective post adjustments vs meds while its more expensive and risky, so its always better to get 2x 76 vs med Play then 1 85 which is no longer designed to fight them as effectively.

Only reason to field 85 is against KT, Tiger or Panther.
17 Apr 2018, 09:22 AM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8528 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2018, 09:06 AMKatitof


You don't see mentions of SU-85 because there is not much to mention here.

It was made bad vs meds and shifted from all round TD to a heavy tank specific counter.
Its less effective post adjustments vs meds while its more expensive and risky, so its always better to get 2x 76 vs med Play then 1 85 which is no longer designed to fight them as effectively.

Only reason to field 85 is against KT, Tiger or Panther.

Su-85 is hardly bad vs mediums, actually the changes made more consistent since they greatly increased accuracy (x160%), increased rotation and give it smaller target size.

Reload is higher but it has better chance to hit and penetrate even vetted PzIV.


SU-85

Accuracy from 0.05/0.0375/0.25 to 0.055/0.045/0.04
Penetration from 200/190/180 to 240/230/220
Reload increased from 3.8/4.2 to 5.4.
Target size reduced from 22 to 18
Rotation rate from 20 to 22
Cost increases from 340 manpower and 120 fuel to 350 manpower and 130 fuel.
Veterancy two -30% reload modifier replaced with +30% weapon penetration modifier.
17 Apr 2018, 09:28 AM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15450 | Subs: 7

I would argue that increasing reload by almost 50% and replacing 30% reload Speed with 30% penetration still supports my argument.

It was repurposed to kill literally 3 Units and compared to previous Iteration vs meds, it is bad, considering how powerful when vetted it was vs meds.

Accuracy does not Play such a major role when you can shoot 5-6 shots in the same duration as you can shoot 3 now.

You really are massively overestimating accuracy impact of high rate of fire weapons for dps calculation.
17 Apr 2018, 09:54 AM
#36
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1956

SU76 is creepy. 3-4 from them hasn really a big price tag...but can manged to one shot most armor....can OP vs blobbs and support weopans and can easily destroy OKW trucks and houses with them...

this bombardement are out of hand...i managed it to get more infantery kills with this thing, than my oponent killed infantery with their mortars...

and remind that sov has much indirect fire...
17 Apr 2018, 10:13 AM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8528 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2018, 09:28 AMKatitof
I would argue that increasing reload by almost 50% and replacing 30% reload Speed with 30% penetration still supports my argument.

It was repurposed to kill literally 3 Units and compared to previous Iteration vs meds, it is bad, considering how powerful when vetted it was vs meds.

Accuracy does not Play such a major role when you can shoot 5-6 shots in the same duration as you can shoot 3 now.

You really are massively overestimating accuracy impact of high rate of fire weapons for dps calculation.

Check your math reload did not become 50% slower (0.70-0.78).

And you are underestimating the changes in accuracy target size and rotation.

A PzIV firing on SU-85 at max range has 45% chance of hitting a SU-85 and 22.5% while moving.

Diving a PzIV to kill a SU-85 has become much more difficult.

The argument the SU-85 is bad vs mediums is simply holds no water, SU-85 can fight the majority of axis armor effectively.

Overall SU-85 is much more powerful than it used to be.
17 Apr 2018, 10:16 AM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15450 | Subs: 7

Oh it is, just not vs meds.

And ist not bad as in unusable vs meds, its bad as in, its not as cost efficient as a pair of SU76s vs them.
17 Apr 2018, 10:19 AM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8528 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2018, 10:16 AMKatitof
Oh it is, just not vs meds.

And ist not bad as in unusable vs meds, its bad as in, its not as cost efficient as a pair of SU76s vs them.

Because SU-76 is OP.
17 Apr 2018, 10:32 AM
#40
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15450 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2018, 10:19 AMVipper

Because SU-76 is OP.

Even if it wasn't, it still is supposed to be effective and reliable vs medium armor and it needs to be more effective then 85 against it, otherwise it would be pointless to field again, as it was in the past.

Same with StuG vs panther.
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