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Churchill tank is the most OP unit ingame

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24 Apr 2018, 20:49 PM
#81
avatar of HoverBacon

Posts: 204

Bit of a necro. But speaking as a Brit main, honestly the Churchill is the most perfect machine ever created right now. With a bit of micro it's unkillable. I've been having games recently where I max Vet it and get well over 50 kills with it with no one really understanding what to do about it, it slaughters most of it's counters quite happily, with the grenades and it's recently buffed machine guns and if shit hits the fan you can smoke off and reverse at light speed through your own smoke.

It seal clubs panzer 4s happily 1v2ing them and can toe to toe a panther normally forcing the panther to back out (although both taking heavy damage). With a 6pdr for backup (or firefly) it makes your point unpushable, at vet 3 it can't really be snared either.

Personally I'm loving it right now, it's very strong and I rush one out every game nearly. It's exceptionally strong midgame. As pointed out, 2 paks or a jagdpanzer are it's best counters yes, best counter is taking HEAT rounds, those things tear it up. But if you have all that stuff that early on you won't be able to field enough infantry to actually cap anyway likely, so you are screwing your chances early on to kill this thing.

Is it OP? In my opinion I reckon it needs adjusting for midgame somehow, maybe increasing the price of anvil? It's really good if you can get it early. Really really good. Although it scales questionably into the late game, It slaughters infantry blobs and mgs and at guns, especially when vetted but panther hit squads, especially with heat rounds, or even pumas with paks/raketenwerfers with support played right with turret locking will annihilate it and with increased repair time from last patch maybe you shouldn't necessarily be thinking about destroying it, dealing a lot of damage is more than fine, it's supposed to have great survivability and does especially with smoke, they can find themself repairing it for longer than it's in combat for if you field the right stuff which a large pop drain lategame if thats whats happening. Same with axis super heavies right now, just chip damage them so they have to keep repairing to keep it from being used, heavy artillery (LefH)is great for this.
10 Sep 2018, 16:52 PM
#82
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 137

I have to agree with the OP here .

I was testing Churchill vs Panthers and the panther narrowly wins by a single shot left before death.

The sheer amount of hp and armour that Churchill has as well as amazing infantry and anti tank capabilities and smoke makes this unit overperform big time.

The Churchill should be bad against other tanks especially something like the Panther. Churchills damage should be changed from 160 to 120 or even 80.
10 Sep 2018, 16:55 PM
#83
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691

I've never had troubles dealing with churchills as ostheer/okw using the proper tools.
10 Sep 2018, 17:23 PM
#84
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1897 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 16:55 PMLuciano
I've never had troubles dealing with churchills as ostheer/okw using the proper tools.


I imagine they are managable in 1v1s, but in team games it can be incredibly hard to deal with Churchill/TD combo because the Churchills just won't die and even deal out good damage of their own while TDs in the second line can freely engage all Axis armor at max range. Not saying they are OP, but they do seem to have very good synergy with the Allied TD meta and I can imagine people struggling to deal with them. Especially since most AT (Pak40, Panzershrecks) seem to do nothing frontally and rakettens are just laughably killed by a Churchill casually driving up to them and throwing the grenade.
10 Sep 2018, 17:34 PM
#85
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 3154 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 16:55 PMLuciano
I've never had troubles dealing with churchills as ostheer/okw using the proper tools.


Aside from being a necro response, if you have the proper tools then yes they're more or less manageable. The problem is that these "tools" are the StuG and the JP4, which both boast RoF to deal with the large HP pool. If you get these tools they have limited use against tanks only and no turret, as opposed to what the churchill offers in AI/AT and very decent armor and large HP. I wouldn't call it the most OP unit in the game, but these kinds of units can really snowball if you get caught offguard since there are so few real counters.

One of the reasons I'm concerned about the new croc. It has the design of churchills but unlike them adds a flamer. Back before its nerf it was nearly unbeatable.
10 Sep 2018, 17:35 PM
#86
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691



I imagine they are managable in 1v1s, but in team games it can be incredibly hard to deal with Churchill/TD combo because the Churchills just won't die and even deal out good damage of their own while TDs in the second line can freely engage all Axis armor at max range. Not saying they are OP, but they do seem to have very good synergy with the Allied TD meta and I can imagine people struggling to deal with them. Especially since most AT (Pak40, Panzershrecks) seem to do nothing frontally and rakettens are just laughably killed by a Churchill casually driving up to them and throwing the grenade.


Sorry but I cant imagine an scenario where churchills dominate in team games, specially when there is twice the axis stuff. I play mostly 1v1, but I play team games sometimes. If you are engaging a churchill with anti tank guns and you dont have a squad with panzerfaust nearby, you are doing something wrong. Churchill in my opinion is probably one of the most balanced heavy tanks in the game.



Aside from being a necro response, if you have the proper tools then yes they're more or less manageable. The problem is that these "tools" are the StuG and the JP4, which both boast RoF to deal with the large HP pool. If you get these tools they have limited use against tanks only and no turret, as opposed to what the churchill offers in AI/AT and very decent armor and large HP. I wouldn't call it the most OP unit in the game, but these kinds of units can really snowball if you get caught offguard since there are so few real counters.


I didnt revive the thread, look up. If you are only considering JP4 and StuG in the formula to deal with the churchills, you should reconsider the way you are analyzing the threat. Mines and panzerfaust are the real dangerous thing for the churchill, specially how slow they are.
10 Sep 2018, 17:43 PM
#87
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 17:35 PMLuciano


I didnt revive the thread, look up. If you are only considering JP4 and StuG in the formula to deal with the churchills, you should reconsider the way you are analyzing the threat. Mines and panzerfaust are the real dangerous thing for the churchill, specially how slow they are.


I know I mean you responded to the necro. I wouldn't consider mines and snares any more dangerous than other tanks. Regardless of whether or not you hit a mine or get snared, the snare threshhold is higher because of the higher HP and it is still difficult to kill a churchill with the amount of HP it has even when snared. Your opponet has a large amount of time to move other units as well as smoke.
10 Sep 2018, 17:48 PM
#88
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691



I know I mean you responded to the necro. I wouldn't consider mines and snares any more dangerous than other tanks. Regardless of whether or not you hit a mine or get snared, the snare threshhold is higher because of the higher HP and it is still difficult to kill a churchill with the amount of HP it has even when snared. Your opponet has a large amount of time to move other units as well as smoke.


By the time the churchill hits the field, you should at least have 2/3 anti tank sources that deal at least 160 damage per shot, if you have problems dealing with snared churchills, maybe you should train your micro to move the other stuff around the battlefield, the other dude will focus on save the churchill, you can capitalize on that.
10 Sep 2018, 18:43 PM
#89
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1800

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 17:48 PMLuciano


By the time the churchill hits the field, you should at least have 2/3 anti tank sources that deal at least 160 damage per shot, if you have problems dealing with snared churchills, maybe you should train your micro to move the other stuff around the battlefield, the other dude will focus on save the churchill, you can capitalize on that.


Hmm...oh..u mean raktens? which die with the first hit from churchhill? or the super duber stpios? lol
10 Sep 2018, 18:52 PM
#90
avatar of elchino7
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Posts: 6232 | Subs: 1



I know I mean you responded to the necro. I wouldn't consider mines and snares any more dangerous than other tanks. Regardless of whether or not you hit a mine or get snared, the snare threshhold is higher because of the higher HP and it is still difficult to kill a churchill with the amount of HP it has even when snared. Your opponet has a large amount of time to move other units as well as smoke.


You don't need to kill your vet feeder in order for you to win the game. I mean from the few games we saw UKF been used competitively, how many Churchills did we saw?

Popcap, HP pool (which takes a while to repair after overall repair nerfs across the board), cost opportunity (as going T4 as OH), mobility.

There was a game between Luvnest vs Talisman which shows how you can exploit it's weakness.
10 Sep 2018, 19:05 PM
#91
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 3154 | Subs: 1



You don't need to kill your vet feeder in order for you to win the game. I mean from the few games we saw UKF been used competitively, how many Churchills did we saw?

Popcap, HP pool (which takes a while to repair after overall repair nerfs across the board), cost opportunity (as going T4 as OH), mobility.

There was a game between Luvnest vs Talisman which shows how you can exploit it's weakness.


I recall that game. Again i'm not saying its blatantly OP, but it is difficult to deal with. As I remember in that game luvnest lost because he didn't have the repairs to keep both his fireflies and the churchill on the field at the same time. That doesn't have much to do with the churchill so much as a missplay.
10 Sep 2018, 19:12 PM
#92
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2605 | Subs: 1



I recall that game. Again i'm not saying its blatantly OP, but it is difficult to deal with. As I remember in that game luvnest lost because he didn't have the repairs to keep both his fireflies and the churchill on the field at the same time. That doesn't have much to do with the churchill so much as a missplay.


Yes it does, focus the repairing squad instead of the churchill.

Now on a more balanced perspective, you shouldn't be thinking to kill anytime right of the bat such expensive unit, it is normal to have it survive some time before the player does a mistake or you exploit better the situation.
10 Sep 2018, 19:14 PM
#93
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 3154 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 19:12 PMEsxile


Yes it does, focus the repairing squad instead of the churchill.

Now on a more balanced perspective, you shouldn't be thinking to kill anytime right of the bat such expensive unit, it is normal to have it survive some time before the player does a mistake or you exploit better the situation.


? So you're supposed to dive his base to kill his reps? I think you completely missed any points we were iterating....
10 Sep 2018, 19:21 PM
#94
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13662 | Subs: 6



Hmm...oh..u mean raktens? which die with the first hit from churchhill? or the super duber stpios? lol

Bad artisan always blames the tools.
10 Sep 2018, 19:39 PM
#95
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691



Hmm...oh..u mean raktens? which die with the first hit from churchhill? or the super duber stpios? lol


?



You don't need to kill your vet feeder in order for you to win the game. I mean from the few games we saw UKF been used competitively, how many Churchills did we saw?

Popcap, HP pool (which takes a while to repair after overall repair nerfs across the board), cost opportunity (as going T4 as OH), mobility.

There was a game between Luvnest vs Talisman which shows how you can exploit it's weakness.


Thats another good point, if you cant kill it dont go nuts and lose all your other things while you try to kill it.



I recall that game. Again i'm not saying its blatantly OP, but it is difficult to deal with. As I remember in that game luvnest lost because he didn't have the repairs to keep both his fireflies and the churchill on the field at the same time. That doesn't have much to do with the churchill so much as a missplay.


Thats how heavy tanks are supossed to work, they are hard to kill lol
10 Sep 2018, 19:58 PM
#96
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 19:39 PMLuciano

Thats how heavy tanks are supossed to work, they are hard to kill lol


Thats how they're supposed to work. Yet for some reason some heavies in this game are hilariously bad in terms of power/cost ratio. The churchill is not one of them. And even though that is true, we do nothing about it.
10 Sep 2018, 20:04 PM
#97
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691



Thats how they're supposed to work. Yet for some reason some heavies in this game are hilariously bad in terms of power/cost ratio. The churchill is not one of them. And even though that is true, we do nothing about it.


And how is that related to the churchill being op? lol
10 Sep 2018, 20:41 PM
#98
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 3154 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2018, 20:04 PMLuciano


And how is that related to the churchill being op? lol


For its cost, in comparison to other tanks, it is VERY cost efficient. Cost efficient units which are also respectable in terms of DPS are considered OP. Former StuG is a great example.
10 Sep 2018, 21:13 PM
#99
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13662 | Subs: 6



For its cost, in comparison to other tanks, it is VERY cost efficient. Cost efficient units which are also respectable in terms of DPS are considered OP. Former StuG is a great example.

DPS against what also matters.

Churchill struggles against OKW P4 and vet2 ost P4.
It can't go up against anything bigger frontally and I don't need to say that won't be flanking anything with it.
10 Sep 2018, 21:21 PM
#100
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 691



For its cost, in comparison to other tanks, it is VERY cost efficient. Cost efficient units which are also respectable in terms of DPS are considered OP. Former StuG is a great example.


The tank does good for its cost and the tech level, it does what you expect to do after you tech to the last level of teching. Its not VERY cost efficent as you say lol
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