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russian armor

no Counter for OKW and Wehrmacht Tank destroyers

23 Mar 2018, 22:01 PM
#81
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2018, 15:59 PMVipper

And people make T-34/76 Sherman and Cromwell. Do you actually have a point?


If you need me to spell out why good players prefer getting P4s means Tier 3 is pretty good (as well as your own admission that the stug is OP) then this conversation is going to take a very long time.

Is your opinion that Ostheer Panzer IV "so good" that they do not need a better tank?


No, it is my observation that players better than I opt for tier 3 and specifically the P4 -- instead of tier 4 and the units it unlocks. They also explicitly say as much when asked.

My opinion on your question is... blank since OKW is my prefered axis faction and I have about 5x as much time with OKW than Wehr. Who cares what my opinion is? Play the way you think is best.

I'm not into stupid nitpicking arguments, if you want to turn this into an endless back and forth then let's just skip the whole thing and you can pat yourself on the back right now having slain another vile noob on the forums.
24 Mar 2018, 09:39 AM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1


If you need me to spell out why good players prefer getting P4s means Tier 3 is pretty good (as well as your own admission that the stug is OP) then this conversation is going to take a very long time.

No, it is my observation that players better than I opt for tier 3 and specifically the P4 -- instead of tier 4 and the units it unlocks. They also explicitly say as much when asked.

My opinion on your question is... blank since OKW is my prefered axis faction and I have about 5x as much time with OKW than Wehr. Who cares what my opinion is? Play the way you think is best.


My point is quite simply ostheer Panzer IV is not "so good". Compared to other medium is sort of OK.

Ostwind is not that great either.

It also becomes obsolete when allied TDs show up.


24 Mar 2018, 10:27 AM
#83
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17895 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2018, 09:39 AMVipper

My point is quite simply ostheer Panzer IV is not "so good". Compared to other medium is sort of OK.

Ostwind is not that great either.

It also becomes obsolete when allied TDs show up.


And your point is incorrect.
P4 is as solid as any other med tank, with its own weaknesses and strengths.

Plus, you know very well how disgustingly overpowered StuG is at AT, yet it did not made allied med tanks obsolete, despite being able to 1v1 literally all of them with exception of doctrinal ones.

If StuG doesn't make allied meds obsolete when it shows up, then same applies for axis armor when allied TDs show up - if you think otherwise, maybe its time to reconsider how you play against them, ESPECIALLY NOW, when allied TDs are actually WEAKER against meds then they used to be.
24 Mar 2018, 10:34 AM
#84
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2018, 10:27 AMKatitof

And your point is incorrect.
P4 is as solid as any other med tank, with its own weaknesses and strengths.

Plus, you know very well how disgustingly overpowered StuG is at AT, yet it did not made allied med tanks obsolete, despite being able to 1v1 literally all of them with exception of doctrinal ones.

If StuG doesn't make allied meds obsolete when it shows up, then same applies for axis armor when allied TDs show up - if you think otherwise, maybe its time to reconsider how you play against them, ESPECIALLY NOW, when allied TDs are actually WEAKER against meds then they used to be.

Once more PLS do not quote me if your answer is going to twist what I wrote.

Read again (this time sloooowly), I did not claim that Ostheer PzIV is worse than allied mediums I point out it is not "Great".

Care to elaborate why in your opinion allied TDs are "weaker" vs PZ IV than they used to be?
24 Mar 2018, 10:50 AM
#85
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2018, 09:39 AMVipper

My point is quite simply ostheer Panzer IV is not "so good".



I agree with you, P4 is in a really bad spot and worse than other mediums out there. If it weren't for some doctrinal abilities (e.g. smoke), it'd be at the very bottom of the list
24 Mar 2018, 11:06 AM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

Lets try this once more time since some people seem to have trouble understanding.

It is my opinion that Ostheer T3 is not "great" (or so good to make T4 not worth it as murky depths claimed). It gives access to 3 units which I would rank as follows:
Stug OP
Pz IV average becomes less effective the longer the game last.
Ostwind average to UP.
24 Mar 2018, 11:11 AM
#87
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2018, 11:06 AMVipper
Lets try this once more time since some people seem to have trouble understanding.

It is my opinion that Ostheer T3 is not "great" (or so good). It gives access to 3 units which I would rank


P4 is indeed not so good as other medium, and by definition, if something is not as good as something else, it's worse than it. We got your point, thanks for clarifying.

Edit: If you did not edit your posts after them being quoted to change your meaning, it'd be clearer from the beginning. This is a forum, not a chat - you can easily proofread before posting.
24 Mar 2018, 15:45 PM
#88
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742


Su76 has always been a meme unit till they buff it (like 3 years). HT got at some point to be a strong unit, but i'm not sure if that was after the rework on the tiers.


I don't think the HT changed itself, but the change in tiers made it come incredibly faster than it ever had in the past. That timing was what warranted the Quad HT to lose reinforcement, (and by extension the flameHT, which made sense, but was mostly a retroactive punishment for the unit being so prominent in the early days. A lot of units have been buffed or nerfed on those grounds unfortunately.)
24 Mar 2018, 16:05 PM
#89
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



I don't think the HT changed itself, but the change in tiers made it come incredibly faster than it ever had in the past. That timing was what warranted the Quad HT to lose reinforcement, (and by extension the flameHT, which made sense, but was mostly a retroactive punishment for the unit being so prominent in the early days. A lot of units have been buffed or nerfed on those grounds unfortunately.)


Yeah, similar to your experiences I still recall the week where the Katyusha was buffed to the point that it became so ridiculously overpowered. It was able to to destroy a fully deployed OKW base in a few volleys. It was the same for the week when USF's assault engineers were buffed to unbalanced T0 monsters of doom. Then came the LeigFestOctober'16.

Fun times, ey.
24 Mar 2018, 16:38 PM
#90
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



I don't think the HT changed itself, but the change in tiers made it come incredibly faster than it ever had in the past. That timing was what warranted the Quad HT to lose reinforcement, (and by extension the flameHT, which made sense, but was mostly a retroactive punishment for the unit being so prominent in the early days. A lot of units have been buffed or nerfed on those grounds unfortunately.)


Thxfully we have the changelog thread and it's as easy as doing a control + F.

3 changes made it good.

- Soviet rework. The whole dichotomy of only getting 2 tiers, made the vehicle tiers arrive at a certain point which limited lighter ones. Putting M5, T70 and Su76 on same tier, allowed it to arrive at a sensible time.
- 200% buff to suppression. Yeah, it was bad.
- 50% buff to damage.




24 Mar 2018, 20:40 PM
#91
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2018, 09:39 AMVipper

My point is quite simply ostheer Panzer IV is not "so good". Compared to other medium is sort of OK.

Ostwind is not that great either.

It also becomes obsolete when allied TDs show up.


Ok. I donno what to say to that other than I guess we disagree as to how relatively effective certain units are.

We work with the tools available to us.
24 Mar 2018, 23:22 PM
#92
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Must be fun for that for Relic to read these threads
25 Mar 2018, 09:31 AM
#93
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1



Ok. I donno what to say to that other than I guess we disagree as to how relatively effective certain units are.

We work with the tools available to us.

So it is your opinion that Ostheer PzIV is actually more cost efficient than Cromwell, Shreman or T-34/76?

My point once more is that T3 gives access to 1 op unit and 2 average so it is not so good to cover Ostheer needs. And since T4 also has its problems many player go for a Tiger when playing Ostheer.
25 Mar 2018, 10:31 AM
#94
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 09:31 AMVipper

So it is your opinion that Ostheer PzIV is actually more cost efficient than Cromwell, Shreman or T-34/76?

My point once more is that T3 gives access to 1 op unit and 2 average so it is not so good to cover Ostheer needs. And since T4 also has its problems many player go for a Tiger when playing Ostheer.


No they are equally cost effective.
25 Mar 2018, 11:59 AM
#95
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 09:31 AMVipper

So it is your opinion that Ostheer PzIV is actually more cost efficient than Cromwell, Shreman or T-34/76?

My point once more is that T3 gives access to 1 op unit and 2 average so it is not so good to cover Ostheer needs. And since T4 also has its problems many player go for a Tiger when playing Ostheer.


p4 got some nice buffs next patch, both pen and fuel reduction AND the t34 got a price increase (now a 30 fuel difference instead of 45)

p4 is easily top dog for medium tanks now, ostwind is pretty meh and stug is OP tho...

tiger imo is just so bloody solid (and iconic) that players want it no matter what...
25 Mar 2018, 18:12 PM
#96
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2018, 09:31 AMVipper

So it is your opinion that Ostheer PzIV is actually more cost efficient than Cromwell, Shreman or T-34/76?

My point once more is that T3 gives access to 1 op unit and 2 average so it is not so good to cover Ostheer needs. And since T4 also has its problems many player go for a Tiger when playing Ostheer.


Ok. Is it "more cost efficient"? That's not a question that I answer when comparing factions that are always pitted against each other.

Like I said, I guess we have differing opinions on the relative strengths of different units, and we just gotta work with what tools we have available in the game.

25 Mar 2018, 18:17 PM
#97
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Typical Katitof: Katy is bad because lack of alpha strike. Werfer is bad because Ost players suck and fire at max range. The hypocrisy oozes out of your ears Katitof. I bet 10 bucks you don't play much Ostheer.

The katy is far better than werfer since you can get decent damage even at max range unlike werfer. You wont get wipes with it too often due to scatter, but the damage is consistent unlike werfer which fires probably only a third or fourth of the rockets. Werfer is ONLY superior to katy when you get an absolute minimum range which is about 45 range away from the target. When you have to be that close to get some real damage off, your risking losing the werfer. Katy can easily get vet 3 by sitting back at max range while for the werfer it's far harder.
25 Mar 2018, 18:27 PM
#98
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17895 | Subs: 8

Katy is more noob friendly, not stronger.

PW is supposed to murder stuff in the area.
Katy is supposed to make it move out of the area.

Single katy is always underwhelming, 2 of them are strong.

One PW will always be strong as long as you don't fire it at max range only.
Let it sink.
25 Mar 2018, 21:38 PM
#99
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

The katy is far better than werfer since you can get decent damage even at max range unlike werfer. You wont get wipes with it too often due to scatter, but the damage is consistent unlike werfer which fires probably only a third or fourth of the rockets.


You say it yourself: You wont get wipes as often. In lategame infantry battle is about having your units full vetted to win the infantry battles. If you win the infantry battles you can support your tanks versus their tanks and team weapons. Wipe a vet 3 unit (maybe upgraded with weapons) with a PW or kill eight grenadiers of different squads with a Katy. Which one is better? I would always choose wiping a vetted squad, it wins games for you. PW is far better at doing that special thing.
26 Mar 2018, 07:56 AM
#100
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

PW is a T4 for unit. It has a higher tech cost.

Katy hits the field easier and earlier.

In addition Katy usually has "juicer" targets to hit due to the reliance of Ostheer to support weapons and the OKW trucks.

That makes Katy usually have a bigger impact in game then PW.
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