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3 May 2017, 16:09 PM
#201
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 16:05 PMVipper
What one should also consider is that axis mediums (PZIV) also get wrecked by firefly/m36/su-85 while being more expensive and thus are bad investments.

Most of 60+ range TDs need to be less effective vs mediums.


lol no, this is a l2p issue.

SU-85 don't have turrets and FF/Jackson are too slow if they get flanked, they also have paper armor so mediums are direct counters to them.

meanwhile Stugs reign supreme on the TD role and SU76 is a close second (the only downside of SU is that it has no turret movement at all unlike stugs that have a quite wide cone of fire)
3 May 2017, 16:12 PM
#202
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13376 | Subs: 1



lol no, this is a l2p issue.

SU-85 don't have turrets and FF/Jackson are too slow if they get flanked, they also have paper armor so mediums are direct counters to them.

meanwhile Stugs reign supreme on the TD role and SU76 is a close second (the only downside of SU is that it has no turret movement at all unlike stugs that have a quite wide cone of fire)

In a 4vs4 game where there fast TDs PzIVs die as soon as they get hit from a single tulip.
Trying to pull a flank is nearly impossible in 4vs4 game.

NO it not a LP issue.
3 May 2017, 16:17 PM
#203
avatar of August1996

Posts: 223

Nerfing the Soviet Forward HQ lel, let's dig a dead commander and beat his carcass LEL
3 May 2017, 16:20 PM
#204
avatar of BIH_kirov_QC

Posts: 367

Note that those are not, necessarily the detailed changes we have in mind. I'm just giving the key changes for each unit. And, of course, none of those changes are final; this is why we brought this up as a topic of discussion.

We need feedback on:
- First of all, if this the right direction to go
- Secondly, if we forgot something
- Finally, once we address #1 and #2, better-finetune the trade-offs and the changes therein


This is 100% direction to go. Im 100% behind these changes
3 May 2017, 16:21 PM
#205
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 993

The biggest problem of team games is late game asymmetry.

One top are heavy axis TD (and Soviet one) and tools for deal with them. Key is find a good balance for offmap abillities and the possibility of defending them for axis.

- heavy TD and tools against them
- proper POP for tanks

The other balance is very similar to 1v1.
3 May 2017, 16:22 PM
#206
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



The problem with Railway Artillery (as you yourself noted) is that the commanders that have it are mostly complete and utter garbage (with the notable exception of the Osttruppen Commander, which is on the edges of being not utterly useless).


Stop distorting what I say.

The reason why the other Railway Artillery commanders are subpar is not because they are unviable. It's because some of the other commanders are completely OP (notably those with Stuka Dive and JU87 CAS)

If you can chose between an OP off-map with a mobile Elefant, why would you ever pick a balanced Railway Arty with an immobile arty-fodder Pak43?
3 May 2017, 16:23 PM
#207
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

Love the changes, except for 2 things.

I know the elefant and jagtiger are getting their damage nerfed, this still didn't change the amount of shots it takes to destroy a ISU, IS2 or kv2.

I really don't have a problem with this except for the ISU and kv2.

If you are considering to giving a AI barrage at vet 0 or decreasing their reload (can you look at their reload vet before you do). I just feel like these 2 units need to be considered a bit.

Overall, happy with the changes (wouldn't mind il2 fab bombs increase to 250 muni, would hope it won't be able to be shot down for that price through).

Ostheer do need their Panthers to work if the stug is getting change regardless, I am very happy the stug is getting changed.

3 May 2017, 16:24 PM
#208
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Note that those are not, necessarily the detailed changes we have in mind. I'm just giving the key changes for each unit. And, of course, none of those changes are final; this is why we brought this up as a topic of discussion.

We need feedback on:
- First of all, if this the right direction to go
- Secondly, if we forgot something
- Finally, once we address #1 and #2, better-finetune the trade-offs and the changes therein

Check


They might be getting some AI utility at Vet0 to compensate. Both units are, at best, troll units in 1v1 and will remain so. Perhaps, with some fancy-looking AI barrage they will get some of their worth back.


Hm I don´t see that working either. An ai barrage with that insane range lol? At least the changes will make prevent them from hard countering the ISU152. It is something I guess?


Crocodile will need some nerfs. I'm just saying that the wipey-AI needs a tone-down and, if necessary, we should explore giving it some AT utility, as opposed to leaving it so deadly in the AI department. The buff in AT could come with additional nerfs, just as the ones that you mentioned.
If you've ever had to fight against a Crocodile & Firefly combo, you will immediately recognise what I mean.


Alright. My apologies, I misinterpreted that one. And yes I have fought against it, that is why I was horrified at reading buffing it's AT abilities due to its huge health pool and fast turning speed.



That's an omission that we could address with a munition price increase.


Alrighty.


Popcap change will mean nothing for 1v1, since you rarely ever see people going above 2 Stugs. With the right kind of teams, however, you routinely get to see Stug 6-packs running around, and that's where a popcap of 8 gets really ridiculous.


I tend to agree a bit. But still, I need at least double pios to repair Ostheer armor, preferably 3 if I have 2 tanks or more. This will start to hurt when pop cap is increased. But considering 3v3 and 4v4 it is a just argument.

Edit: I just got notified by another poster that of course the pioneer repair rate will be buffed directly or indirectly. Forget this argument! You even said so yourself in my thread about it. Lol so stupid of me


We could make the MG upgrade better or cheaper (it's fixed arc after all) to compensate.


It is something, but it is not like that mg does anything anyway lol.


You can't build howitzers in 1v1 because they cost a fuckton of manpower. 600MP in the late-game is simply too much. The idea is to offset the ridiculous MP cost with some FU cost, so that you aren't so completely bottlenecked.


If 50FU is too much for a 200MP discount, feel free to suggest an alternative price.


From a team game perspective, 50 fuel wouldn't be too much. But from a 1v1 perspective I can only see the Ostheer and Soviet ones working with a 50 fuel price. The OKW needs to be cheaper.

Any change to buff Brit base howitzers while you are at it?
3 May 2017, 16:26 PM
#209
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 955

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 14:22 PMLoxley


This is so with the most changes "suggested" here. They talk about more diversity with commanders, but in reality, they make much commanders useless and no one will play them anymore.
Crappy Sturmtiger that can not be combined with KT, no one will play it,
Pak43 for so much fuel and it still gets destroyed in seconds, no one will play it anymore,
Elefant that needs only 1-2 shots less than a panther to kill something, but can not escape and has to be secured be many units, no one will play it.
Same can happen with soviet FHQ commander.


That a very good point.

We must keep diversity alive.

I'm against any big radical nerfs to any factions. Rather small ajustements and doctrinal to non_doctrinal switch.

Commander's diversity is a must. Having more than one overlapping ability is very bad.

Only few abilities in CoH2 are really too good and are played all the time.

Player's skill matter the most in all formats.
3 May 2017, 16:27 PM
#210
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

I have a question: When is OKW Anti-air capabilities are going to be nerfed? in team games where there is more than one OKW it's impossible to use any plane abilities since they get instantly shot down by all the AA from base guns and flaktrucks.
3 May 2017, 16:29 PM
#211
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1147 | Subs: 1

Can someone tell me what the 'team game meta' is? Is there is a 4v4 meta (if so, what is it)?
3 May 2017, 16:31 PM
#212
avatar of BIH_kirov_QC

Posts: 367


I tend to agree a bit. But still, I need at least double pios to repair Ostheer armor, preferably 3 if I have 2 tanks or more. This will start to hurt when pop cap is increased. But considering 3v3 and 4v4 it is a just argument.


Mr smith said in his first post this to :

Address repair-speed inconsistencies

Self-explanatory

so he does wanna i think buff the ost/soviet repair speed or nerf the others armies repair speed to ost/soviets level.
3 May 2017, 16:33 PM
#213
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 14:22 PMLoxley


This is so with the most changes "suggested" here. They talk about more diversity with commanders, but in reality, they make much commanders useless and no one will play them anymore.
Crappy Sturmtiger that can not be combined with KT, no one will play it,
Pak43 for so much fuel and it still gets destroyed in seconds, no one will play it anymore,
Elefant that needs only 1-2 shots less than a panther to kill something, but can not escape and has to be secured be many units, no one will play it.
Same can happen with soviet FHQ commander.


You are quite right actually, I feel like this is going to be the case all the time sadly, heres hoping its not to late to prove us wrong through.
3 May 2017, 16:33 PM
#214
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 993

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 16:29 PMGdot
Can someone tell me what the 'team game meta' is? Is there is a 4v4 meta (if so, what is it)?


It's practically another game. In 1v1 you must outacap and outplay oponent. In large team game you have plenty off resources and It's more about overturning the opponent = more mortars and MGs, less infantry. Flanking is almost impossible.
3 May 2017, 16:34 PM
#215
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1147 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 16:33 PMAradan


It's practically another game. In 1v1 you must outacap and outplay oponent. In large team game you have plenty off resources and It's more about overturning the opponent = more mortars and MGs, less infantry. Flanking is almost impossible.


I see. And what would the meta be for 4v4?
3 May 2017, 16:39 PM
#216
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

MG and mortar spam is very common, especially on axis sides, and by the time you manage to counter it, mediums will be everywhere so you will spend the other half of the game trying to counter tanks.

Another thing that is common on 4v4 is rushing caches, so late game teching is not a problem. Lately I have seen plenty of 13 minutes brumbars.
3 May 2017, 16:42 PM
#217
avatar of Array
Donator 11

Posts: 608

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 16:05 PMVipper
What one should also consider is that axis mediums (PZIV) also get wrecked by firefly/m36/su-85 while being more expensive and thus are bad investments.

Most of 60+ range TDs need to be less effective vs mediums.


Those all come after axis mediums though and a nerf to firefly has been suggested. The su85 is turretleds so has a clear weakness
3 May 2017, 16:45 PM
#218
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987



lol no, this is a l2p issue.

SU-85 don't have turrets and FF/Jackson are too slow if they get flanked, they also have paper armor so mediums are direct counters to them.

meanwhile Stugs reign supreme on the TD role and SU76 is a close second (the only downside of SU is that it has no turret movement at all unlike stugs that have a quite wide cone of fire)


I disagree partly. You're right that the FF and jackson are flankable and that's their weakness.


But the Jackson and FF have a similar advantage to the Jagd and Elefant. CoH2 maps are BAD for flanking. (narrow roads, lots of mine-spam) Very bad! So often you gotta go face to face.
3 May 2017, 16:45 PM
#219
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



Mr smith said in his first post this to :

Address repair-speed inconsistencies

Self-explanatory

so he does wanna i think buff the ost/soviet repair speed or nerf the others armies repair speed to ost/soviets level.


You are right, I forgot about that. He even said that in my thread about repair speeds. Thanks for putting my attention to this!
3 May 2017, 16:53 PM
#220
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2017, 16:34 PMGdot


I see. And what would the meta be for 4v4?


Think about 2v2. Now remove what it can make it more or less simil with 1v1, add more cancer to the mix and top it off with the best offmaps, indirect fire and late game tanks you can think off.
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