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Teamgame dominant meta

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1 May 2017, 13:25 PM
#1
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

I'm making this post give a glimpse about how we (the balance team) feel teamgame dominant meta could be changed to be more fun and more diverse.

Part of the reason I'm making this post is to openly declare our intentions to the community and get some feedback.

Preface



Highest priority changes



High priority cheese



1v1-affecting cheese




Good-to-have stuff




1 May 2017, 13:40 PM
#3
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 970 | Subs: 2

Walking Stuka should enter in dominant last-game (Although before should also be fixed emplacements).
1 May 2017, 13:43 PM
#4
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

Walking Stuka should enter in dominant last-game (Although before should also be fixed emplacements).


It should. Walking Stuka however should receive a rework, tbh. The unit is OP in 4v4 but near-completely useless in 1v1.

What makes Walking Stuka so OP is the pinpoint accuracy. What makes it garbage is also its pinpoint accuracy (move 5 steps -> no damage taken).

We could maybe make it more even if:
- The barrage became more inaccurate but maybe did less damage
- (A nerfed version of) incendiary barrage was already available at Vet0 (that way MechHQ gets garrison clearing when ISG also receives changes)
- Cheaper but more fragile

This goes into OKW-rework and emplacement-rework territory, though.
1 May 2017, 13:49 PM
#5
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 823

Walking Stuka should enter in dominant last-game (Although before should also be fixed emplacements).


yep espacially 17 pounder need buff and maybe mortar pit cost decrease
1 May 2017, 13:52 PM
#6
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18



yep espacially 17 pounder need buff and maybe mortar pit cost decrease


Added some emplacement ideas.

Mortar Pit needs nerfs (coupled with ISG nerfs). That's because Mortar Pits force OST/OKW to always go LeFH leading to stale meta.

The idea here is that 25-pounder flares will have to see some buff at some point to provide long-range indirect fire support. This will allow Brits to have a counter to Pak43 paving the way for Pak43 buffs.

17 pounder definitely needs help, but not before we've figured out what to do with Brace. e.g.,:
- Popcap decrease
- Target size decrease (from 40 to 18?)
- Piercing shot trades places with Flares as garrison bonus/Vet1 bonus

1 May 2017, 13:56 PM
#7
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1120

I'll just leave this here...

Alien technology called brace/emplacements in general

I agree with calliope changes you mention, tho as I also stated, walking stuka/panzerwerfer I would prefer a spreaded area then just a pin point area.
1 May 2017, 13:58 PM
#8
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 823




- Piercing shot trades places with Flares as garrison bonus/Vet1 bonus



That sounds nice
1 May 2017, 14:04 PM
#9
avatar of Heavy_gamer

Posts: 5

Banned


Stuka Dive Bomb

- In addition to being OP vs infantry, it also completely nullifies half of the available Soviet doctrines
- If you want an easy-click ability to counter howitzers, pick Railway artillery, instead


And so are the Il2-Fab and %90 of brits offmap barrages.

Elefant/Jagdtiger

2-shots -> medium tank/TD dead

These things exist to keep allied super-medium spam in check.



Calliope
- Impossible to counter using Axis armour
LoL. All it takes is a puma or a diving panther.



High priority cheese



Crocodile

This is, again, an issue with super-specialized hardware. Even if you make them OK for 1v1, they become a menace in anything bigger than that.

- Simply too good for its cost at killing infantry

Never seen the crocodile used in high level play. This thing is already useless, no need for unnecessary nerfs.

Fireflies

Fireflies are mostly OK for 1v1. However:
- They have too good accuracy and moving accuracy making vehicle-play impossible against them
- This is, unless, OST/OKW use heavy-TDs (which will be getting nerfed, btw)

Solution:
- Reduce accuracy/moving accuracy to SU-85 levels

None of those parameters are issues. You failed to identify its main issue, which is the overal DPS.



JP4

- Good luck countering this unit with Soviets/USF if it's vetted
SU85 duh, with its telescopes.


Pak43

Same as above. However, before doing this, it would be wise to create non-doc counters to them for USF/Brits:
- Cost changed from 500MP to 350MP/60FU?
:facepalm:



Demo charge rework

Trial-and-error.
Demos are perfectly fine

1 May 2017, 14:23 PM
#10
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2067 | Subs: 2

Mostly agree with Heavy_Gamer.

The only thing that needs immediate fix is brace/mortar pit. I'd agree that Demo's are also a pretty lame mechanic that should be fixed.

You can't nerf Stuka DB without also nerfing the allied equivalents.

Cant nerf Ele or JT without nerfing T34/85 and Mark Target.

Calli and ST can both be dealt with, both are powerful but don't need to be messed with. Especially st considering the rest of the doc is trash.

Sure, fix repair rate inconsistencies, but honestly most of these definitely seem to be a personal opinion.
1 May 2017, 14:23 PM
#11
avatar of Loxley

Posts: 191

Mostly agree with Heavy_Gamer.

The only thing that needs immediate fix is brace/mortar pit. I'd agree that Demo's are also a pretty lame mechanic that should be fixed.

You can't nerf Stuka DB without also nerfing the allied equivalents.

Cant nerf Ele or JT without nerfing T34/85 and Mark Target.

Most of these definitely seem to be a personal opinion.


+1
1 May 2017, 14:39 PM
#12
avatar of Taksin02

Posts: 100

Just make both heavy destroyer (j.tiger , elephant) operate similar to vCOH panzer elite marder 3

Site Main Gun
The Marder III receives a significant bonus to its attack damage, Penetration, reload times and sight-range.
The unit is rendered immobile.
Costs nothing.
Duration: Permanent until deactivated.
Cooldown: 10 seconds (activation) / 3 seconds (deactivation)


- mobile mode with range 60
- immobile mode (rotatable) mode with range 85 + faster reload
5 seconds activation / 3 seconds deactivation




1 May 2017, 14:43 PM
#13
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1631 | Subs: 1

Agree except the Elefant/Jagdtiger one.

That tank is such a huge investment. It should be good at what it's made for. It's already easy to swarm them with comets/shermans. The 3-shot change will make it even easier for comets to break through.

It's tricky to scout for ele/JT and micro them all the time and cover flanks, while being constantly under artillery fire (elefant usually means there are already 2 calliopes/katys/land mattresses on the field).
1 May 2017, 14:48 PM
#14
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1120

Yea as mentioned above. Usually when you have a shit load of various allied artillery raining down on your front lines, mixed with an infantry blobbing push, mixed with allied tanks on the flank mixed with off map abilities. It can be very hectic to micro and make usage out of an elephant/JT. The yellow cover alone makes for terminator infantry and yellow cover is everywhere late game...
1 May 2017, 14:48 PM
#15
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

Just make both heavy destroyer (j.tiger , elephant) operate similar to vCOH panzer elite marder 3

Site Main Gun
The Marder III receives a significant bonus to its attack damage, Penetration, reload times and sight-range.
The unit is rendered immobile.
Costs nothing.
Duration: Permanent until deactivated.
Cooldown: 10 seconds (activation) / 3 seconds (deactivation)


- mobile mode with range 60
- immobile mode (rotatable) mode with range 85 + faster reload
5 seconds activation / 3 seconds deactivation



That could be a nice idea. At the same time, however, this possibility already exists, and it comes with cool animations too! It's called Hull Down :)

Mostly agree with Heavy_Gamer.

The only thing that needs immediate fix is brace/mortar pit. I'd agree that Demo's are also a pretty lame mechanic that should be fixed.


As much as we would love to fix Brace/trenches etc, fixing this is more involved. That is to say, if we are to be objective, there is no single no-brainer change we can make to these issues without breaking synergy elsewhere.

AKA, those will definitely have to be investigated in the process of a balance-preview mod.


You can't nerf Stuka DB without also nerfing the allied equivalents.


There's no allied equivalent to the Stuka Dive Bomb, especially considering cost and mode of operation.


Cant nerf Ele or JT without nerfing T34/85 and Mark Target.


Damage nerf to 280 means that T34/85's will take an equal number of shots to die as before the damage nerf. This change will only affect the survivability of stock medium allied T3 tanks.

Sure. Mark Target could do with a nerf, though.


Calli and ST can both be dealt with, both are powerful but don't need to be messed with. Especially st considering the rest of the doc is trash.


Trash doctrines and abilities will have to be reworked. From my perspective (and all of us share this viewpoint) is that doctrines should not be "carried" by a single OP ability (see artillery cover).

Ideally, the doctrine should be composed of useful abilities that also make sense when bundled together. Thankfully, both Tactical Support and Elite Armour have useless abilities that can be buffed to make doctrines feel more thematic, rather than make singular units define the doctrine.

Agree except the Elefant/Jagdtiger one.

That tank is such a huge investment. It should be good at what it's made for. It's already easy to swarm them with comets/shermans. The 3-shot change will make it even easier for comets to break through.

It's tricky to scout for ele/JT and micro them all the time and cover flanks, while being constantly under artillery fire (elefant usually means there are already 2 calliopes/katys/land mattresses on the field).


Damage nerf means that cost can go down, by a lot.

Comets already require 3 shots to go down to Elefant/JT, and they will still require 3 shots to go down post-change.

This is similar to demo-charges, which are 90MU all-or-nothing investments.
With Elefant/JT damage nerf we merely want to avoid those things from being too good at wiping things.
1 May 2017, 14:53 PM
#16
avatar of TheSleep3r

Posts: 670

I love most and at least like almost all of the changes. I'm sorry to do it but I must ask for obligatory look at conscripts and panthers in the next patch. Could the balance team at least try to do something about them?
1 May 2017, 14:56 PM
#17
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 953 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2017, 13:25 PMMr.Smith
I'm making this post give a glimpse about how we (the balance team) feel teamgame dominant meta could be changed to be more fun and more diverse.

Part of the reason I'm making this post is to openly declare our intentions to the community and get some feedback.

Preface



Highest priority changes



High priority cheese



1v1-affecting cheese




Good-to-have stuff







Great projects, still very much appreciated but it's just too much.

Team formats don't need that much ajustements.

Only the following one are critical : For balance and fun factors reasons (1 shot kill, no counter)

In need of nerfs :

OKW's Walking Stuka : (Non-doctrinal);
USA's Calliope : (Non-doctrinal);
OST's Stuka Dive Bomb : (Doctrinal);
Brit's weapon dispenser truck : (Doctrinal); -» (too much relied upon and abused in team format);
Brit's Emplacement brace : (Non-doctrinal)-» Stand Fast remove brace and prevent it's use.

In need of buffs :
Soviet's infantry : So they don't have to rely on penal all the time. They need more alternatives.
USA's infantry : Now without 2 Bars, they need to be a bit more durable to achieve vet+++.

Sure all what you propose is justify (except maybe : Firefly nerf : turret and firing rate already too low), but those above are critical to restore the fun factor to a winning level !


Thanks for all you efforts at restoring the fun factor to the team format.


1 May 2017, 15:01 PM
#18
avatar of August1996

Posts: 207

Nerfing Calliopes would be good just because how fast it wipes everything, but I disagree with nerfing the barrage to Katy levels while also reducing armor and HP. At the very least lower the cost and popcap because 140F for a slightly tankier Katy would be a bit too much. Or reducing the ROF of Calli like what you guys did with LM would be nice.
1 May 2017, 15:04 PM
#19
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1120

The calliope is a safe investment. With how often an axis tank misses, mixed with the reload time of a panther for example, calliopes are near invonirable. You have to go balls deep with multiple tanks and hope not to hit a mine, hope all your shots connect, and hope the player is a moron. Calliopes are always well protected. And being able to take multiple rounds is bs, mixed with their power. 9/10 you get snared and lose a tank.
1 May 2017, 15:05 PM
#20
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1631 | Subs: 1

Is there, by any means, any chance to switch the brit Mortar Pit with a mobile mortar?

you could use the US mortar model and give it the OST mortar stats (i think nobody would be against). then the mortar pit could be doctrinal in, let's say the Royal Artillery Doc.

That would lead to so much more dynamic gameplay...
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