Balance for infiltration squads badly needed?

It should be super-trivial to add this suggestion into a mod. The only forseeable issue I see with it is what happens to strong short-range units, like commandos.

If commandos spawn with rifles, say hello to double-bren commandos.

Don't give them rifles when they spawn then. Give them pistols or is a knife/bayonet possible? If not, there must be another less rapidly lethal weapon that takes up a slot... Scoped Lee Enfield?

I have to agree with people who say this will remove yet another sniper counter from the OKW. I would say only have the weapons delay in smg/lmg infiltration units, leaving Jaegers how they are.

If you gonna do those changes may i suggest an upgrade for obers with a sniper rifle (like Tommies had in vCoH1), with of course cammo and accuracy buffs to make sure that this upgrade is worth taking.

Obers with the LMG shred snipers before they can even react, even destroy them on retreat!

Just a question, if you do make the rule that infiltration squads can only spawn in own teritorry, how would OKW be able to counter snipers (directly)?

Anyone remembers the vCoH fallschirmjaegers?
- Kar98k at start which can be upgraded to FG42
- a grenade which was meant to clear out buildings only

It was the dream

Yeah and they were more lethal then coh2 Falls. They were fckn scary, I loved em) Not so prone to being one-shot either.

So you call removing their key utility for a pittance cost reduction a buff?

Their scoped g43 can not one shot a sniper, do you know how its mechanics even work?

And so what if PF still exist, youre still removing one possible counter. Plus PF dont counter snipers, other than just being 6 men.




Well isnt that a loaded question. And yes, OKW has no hard counter to snipers and you're just removing another counter from an already weak arsenal

Your statement as written is incorrect. Jaegers have a G43 member that crits members when the health of the opposing target falls below 75% and a penetrating hit. In most squads this results in a somewhat inconsistent model drop because it relies on RNG. However, when fighting snipers all members of the squad fire at the same model making for far more consistent model drop. In fact, with the received accuracy of the sniper Jaegers will rapidly drop the health and with one good shot will crit a sniper. How is this not a one shot-one kill on the G43? The only limitation is that the sniper needs to take some damage first.

PF do a good job on snipers for a couple of reasons: 1) they have too many models to be bled away by the sniper, 2) they have long range high DPS rifles that fire accurately on the move, 3) all their vet focuses on closing gaps quickly, increasing accuracy, and providing more sight.

While I agree that OKW will have a harder time dealing with snipers if infiltration units are modified, this is also the case on many maps anyway. There are currently plenty of maps where a good player can keep their sniper away from buildings that can be used. The changes to the snipers in the current mod will come as a nerf to this unit, and I think it better to continue to nerf that unit rather than leave a questionable mechanic in the game. Falls spawning on retreating maxims and the drop-pickup-drop "bug" taking over so the MG gets wiped is stupid.

#1 So you want a 4 man sniper squad that insta wipes any squad it clicks on? do YOU know how its mechanics even work? 3 squad member fires, taking the sniper HP down to >75, last member fires, gets crit. basically, a one shotted sniper.

#2 6 men squads are impossible to take out with a sniper, if you can't use a 6 man squad to your advantage against a sniper then I'm sorry but thats your problem and not the games.

#3 If only you had a T0 vehicle that had a damage buff vs snipers, that would be helpful wouldn't it...

If you seriously rely on infiltration squads to kill a single unit then you really need to learn how to use stealth units and or flanking efficiently, not just A moving your whole army around the map/clicking on the retreating sniper.

Snipers require so much baby sitting that 90% of the time you will kill it without you even knowing if you play normally, it's impossible to use a sniper and fight on several points of the map, use that to your advantage, start several fights, locate the sniper, flank it whilst keeping the fight active and more intense in the area the sniper isn't.

#1 I was not under the impression JLI had 100% accuracy, Do you think that is the case? I mean if you want to assume a unit has 100% accuracy, what cant one shot a sniper?

#2 Last time i checked snipers weren't meant to wipe squads. And there is a good argument that OKW or any faction shouldnt rely on a doctrine to counter a stock unit.

#3 True, except that strategy its directly countered by basic Inf, Light vehicles and early counters like guards. If only there was a unit that could get around such a defensive line, I wonder what it could be?

How is this not a one shot-one kill on the G43? The only limitation is that the sniper needs to take some damage first.

Because it takes 4 shots?

Because it takes 4 shots?

Again, that is only if the sniper has full health. Otherwise the Jaeger can actually one shot the sniper. This also is a somewhat arbitrary distinction, since being in range of one squad member nearly guarantees that you are in range of the other members, and the team of four function as a sniper unit, albeit with slightly less power than a traditional sniper, but with huge amounts more of survivability and utility.

It is quite possible to jump out of a building and one shot a sniper down.

The reason I am making this point is because the way you describe it you make it sound like the Jaeger's do not have a sniper model, and they absolutely do. This is important to remember when fighting them especially when squads are at low health.

Just a question, if you do make the rule that infiltration squads can only spawn in own teritorry, how would OKW be able to counter snipers (directly)?

#1 I was not under the impression JLI had 100% accuracy, Do you think that is the case? I mean if you want to assume a unit has 100% accuracy, what cant one shot a sniper?

I feel, sometimes people forget this unit's lovely sprint burst. If you cant kill the sniper by using this ability, you DEFINETELY force its retreat.

Oh and why you can't counter snipers well with PF? o.O
As mentioned above: They got 6 men, high long range accuracy and good sight. PF spam pretty much f*cks snipers.

I agree that snipers can be pain in the ass for OKW if u dont pick Scavenge or Breakthrough doctrine, but dont forget:

Obers are expensive and have 4 models only, but they melt snipers like no tomorrow.

That's not the real counter, blobing sniper makes it retreat and that's it. We speak about ways to kill that unit, not base on rng or mistake of your opponent. Yes, PF and obers can kill the sniper even on long range but only if it's overextended (aka. mistake of your enemy). I personally want a unit that can cammo and in appropriate conditions can 1 shotted enemy sniper. That's a real counter.

Having thought about it, I don't think infiltration units need any changes tbh. Even if you reduce their cost to compensate, they would lose their main appeal, which is the ability to cause chaos and ambush units. Without that there is no reason to get Fallschirmjagers or Jagers instead of plain Volks. Leave them be.

It should be super-trivial to add this suggestion into a mod. The only forseeable issue I see with it is what happens to strong short-range units, like commandos.

If commandos spawn with rifles, say hello to double-bren commandos.

Instaed of dirty cheap ppsh partisans commados aren´t instant. You either call in forwad logistic glider with officer into your territory and then start training commados

Or you pay 540 mp for glider and commandos. Enemy have lot of time to prepare for commados because glider is circling there for like 10 seconds before landing and so, its your mistake if you don´t respond to this correctly by retreating wounded squads/sniper. It cost 540mp after all.

I see no reason to nerf commandos.

Only infiltration commados may be problem, I think it´s much easier to replace infiltration commados with glider ones than nerfing one of cool balanced and unique call ins unit.



Falls should act like paratroopers - dropped from sky if possible, so they once against became less of a problem without nerfing them.


JLI and Stormtroppers are fine I think.


Conclusion, only partisans need nerfing, others one some changes, like replacing ability or making them fall from sky.

Please don´t nerf these special units

Falls weren't such a problem until they buffed the Bundle Grenade to be 100% wipe all the time unless you react instantly, something that weapon teams can't do, Paratroopers are perfectly fair compared to that BS.

Instaed of dirty cheap ppsh partisans commados aren´t instant. You either call in forwad logistic glider with officer into your territory and then start training commados

Or you pay 540 mp for glider and commandos. Enemy have lot of time to prepare for commados because glider is circling there for like 10 seconds before landing and so, its your mistake if you don´t respond to this correctly by retreating wounded squads/sniper. It cost 540mp after all.

I see no reason to nerf commandos.

Only infiltration commados may be problem, I think it´s much easier to replace infiltration commados with glider ones than nerfing one of cool balanced and unique call ins unit.



Falls should act like paratroopers - dropped from sky if possible, so they once against became less of a problem without nerfing them.


JLI and Stormtroppers are fine I think.


Conclusion, only partisans need nerfing, others one some changes, like replacing ability or making them fall from sky.

Please don´t nerf these special units

I agree about commandos, and I only meant infiltration commandos (it's an infiltration unit thread D

About falls falling from the sky; while it does sound interesting as a notion, there already is a separate ability in the doctrine that does exactly that. Also, unlike Paratroopers, OKW has no unit to be planting beacons.

Btw, regarding paradropping, only Falls and Paratroopers have the right animations to support a paradrop landing. All other paradropping models look like they are taking a dump in the woods.

If Relic ever finds the resources to add paradropping animations, I can definitely see to having a mod with Bosstruppen paradropping to crew pintle MGs.

Are we talking about live here? Because Falls are perhaps the most manpower ineffective call in squad ingame, and then a single AOE attack comes along and kill them. Hurr-durr.

That's not the real counter, blobing sniper makes it retreat and that's it. We speak about ways to kill that unit, not base on rng or mistake of your opponent. Yes, PF and obers can kill the sniper even on long range but only if it's overextended (aka. mistake of your enemy). I personally want a unit that can cammo and in appropriate conditions can 1 shotted enemy sniper. That's a real counter.

Having thought about it, I don't think infiltration units need any changes tbh. Even if you reduce their cost to compensate, they would lose their main appeal, which is the ability to cause chaos and ambush units. Without that there is no reason to get Fallschirmjagers or Jagers instead of plain Volks. Leave them be.

Hmm I have to agree here. The idea of removing the ability to spawn in enemy territory may be too harsh.

But still: most infiltration units are wrong designed imo. An infiltration squad shouldn't be so lethal from beginning, with such a broken wipe potential since second 0!

About JLI: maybe give them stealth at vet 0, but making them spawn with Kar98 only, with access to G43 sniper rifle upgrade for ~40 mun?

Are we talking about live here? Because Falls are perhaps the most manpower ineffective call in squad ingame, and then a single AOE attack comes along and kill them. Hurr-durr.

Squad spacing changed in the Balance Mod....
Falls are pretty good actually. I still use them, post non-doc mg34, even with an otherwise lacklustre doctrine. But they are not OP.

The infiltration mechanic can truly be frustrating, especially on maps that have lots of houses and shacks.

The other thing is IME, partisans are generally used in conjunction with conspam or with maxims, so your already fighing or microing on multiple fronts, making it very easy not to react in time to the ppsh partisan wiping your support weapons. It is simply not an ability I associate with skill or good gameplay.

I often wonder if relic misjudge the age of their playerbase, because only 13 year olds would find this fun to play against.

I agree about commandos, and I only meant infiltration commandos (it's an infiltration unit thread D

About falls falling from the sky; while it does sound interesting as a notion, there already is a separate ability in the doctrine that does exactly that. Also, unlike Paratroopers, OKW has no unit to be planting beacons.

Btw, regarding paradropping, only Falls and Paratroopers have the right animations to support a paradrop landing. All other paradropping models look like they are taking a dump in the woods.

If Relic ever finds the resources to add paradropping animations, I can definitely see to having a mod with Bosstruppen paradropping to crew pintle MGs.

But these 2 abilities would be still different. In one you get starfing runs and falls for munny and in second you get fall for MP. Also munnition ability need fixing because right now those planes are only visual (and supress a bit). Maybe making them as normal skillplanez with 1 strafe would be much better.



Partisans and stormtroops shouldn´t drop from sky to keep things historical. I think we agree

But these 2 abilities would be still different. In one you get starfing runs and falls for munny and in second you get fall for MP. Also munnition ability need fixing because right now those planes are only visual (and supress a bit). Maybe making them as normal skillplanez with 1 strafe would be much better.



Partisans and stormtroops shouldn´t drop from sky to keep things historical. I think we agree

They should drop smoke too.

About JLI: maybe give them stealth at vet 0, but making them spawn with Kar98 only, with access to G43 sniper rifle upgrade for ~40 mun?

I would buy that