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British Mortar range is too damn high

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Aerohank
19 Feb 2016, 18:11 PM
#61
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 17:56 PMPurlictor


almost 700MP vs a mortar pit of 400?


Exactly. You have to spend manpower to counter things. You have to spend more manpower if you want to counter things quickly. 2 LEIGS counter mortar pits quickly and require almost no micro to do so. After you killed the mortar pit, you now have 2 Leigs to bombard infantry sections -that have to stand bunched up in cover to be effective- with. I don't know what more you could want. Countering emplacements HAS to come at a price, otherwise there would be no point for the opponent to even construct the emplacement to begin with now would there?
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Purlictor
19 Feb 2016, 18:16 PM
#62
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 18:11 PMAerohank


Exactly. You have to spend manpower to counter things. You have to spend more manpower if you want to counter things quickly. 2 LEIGS counter mortar pits quickly and require almost no micro to do so. After you killed the mortar pit, you now have 2 Leigs to bombard infantry sections -that have to stand bunched up in cover to be effective- with. I don't know what more you could want. Countering emplacements HAS to come at a price, otherwise there would be no point for the opponent to even construct the emplacement to begin with now would there?


But the mortar pit has more range? You can't just start attacking and kill it within a few seconds. Double leig also comes out a whole lot later than brits can build their mortar pit, as well as the fact that some mortar pit placements (like the one posted by the OP) can not simply be killed with leigs.

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Virtual Boar
19 Feb 2016, 18:52 PM
#63
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 17:40 PMPurlictor


What are we talking about here? When does ostheer and OKW ever have the time and resources to get 2 mortarHTs or 2 LeiGs out? Armored assault? This isn't the late game. Axis will at best be able to afford a luchs, if that. And if they get a luchs, they have no Leig or puma for the AEC.



When? All the time. I don't understand your doubt. As Ostheer i always get mortars, irrespective of opponent, to counter AEC a well position pak + grens or Pgrens with shreks are enough. Mortars are just such a great unit to have. OKW you teching for LeiG is also a safe thing, you combined that with your panzer shrek volks, can shield your Leig from aggressive AEC counter.


AEC is a whole other problem and has nothing to do with the efficacy of emplacements, you are conflating issues here. But worry not 25th February will end the AEC abuse.
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Katitof
19 Feb 2016, 19:03 PM
#64
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 17:56 PMPurlictor


almost 700MP vs a mortar pit of 400?


Thats not really any strain for MP floating OKW.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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general_gawain
19 Feb 2016, 19:53 PM
#65
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 17:40 PMPurlictor
What are we talking about here? When does ostheer and OKW ever have the time and resources to get 2 mortarHTs or 2 LeiGs out? Armored assault? This isn't the late game. Axis will at best be able to afford a luchs, if that. And if they get a luchs, they have no Leig or puma for the AEC.


I always get 2 LeIGs out versus brits, they counter nearly anything brits can field in the early to mid game: emplacements, tommies and sappers bunched up in cover (where they should be), vickers, 6-pounder and with a lucky shoot sniper too. Playing as brits on the other side I really hate it when double LeIGs show up, they rape your emplacements so fast and you have so weak offensive troops to go and get the LeIGs. If one faction is really MP starved in the beginning it is brits. I said this on another thread: Imo LeIGfest is the reason brits get a dlc commander with long rocket artillery (and another one with counter battery fire of 25pdrs).
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Australian Magic
19 Feb 2016, 20:10 PM
#66
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How about we lower pit's range by 30% and add light shell with less AoE which can land further?
Oh, wait...
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ZombiFrancis
19 Feb 2016, 20:27 PM
#67
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Also, it's worth pointing out that because repairing doesn't inflict a manpower penalty like in vCoH, all that damage and effort on hurting mortar pits inflicts exactly zero manpower bleed.

All the advice to recrew and keep reinforcing the team weapons to kill emplacements is suggesting a one-way street of manpower bleed. Sure there's a fair cost of manpower to invest in a mortar pit, but it's way efficient in manpower maintenance.

While they're immobile, it also doesn't spend the time retreating, reinforcing, and re-positioning. That alone undercuts the 'drawback' of being immobile. (Hell most of the time you don't want to have to retreat your mortar teams because a single infantry unit, indirect fire barrage, or vehicle gets close.) Just those few seconds to get your army to defend your team weapons in position is so useful for maintaining map presence.
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Soheil
19 Feb 2016, 20:50 PM
#68
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jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2016, 21:27 PMRedT3rror
It outranges ISG guns by far, Ostheer mortars don't stand a chance and it can not be countered when placed out of your reach. The result are 2, often 4 mortars shelling the frontlines and stopping every advance towards the VPs.

The main problem is how they can be placed so far behind the frontlines that their supposed counters are not able to reach them. Despite firing on maximum range they remain very effective thanks to their numerous amounts. It's also not uncommon to cover 2 VPs with those emplacements.

Unlike their counterparts - the ISG and mortar - they can scale well into lategame since rocket artillery will hardly harm them.

yap,ive posted this before.
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Aerohank
19 Feb 2016, 21:01 PM
#69
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 18:16 PMPurlictor


But the mortar pit has more range? You can't just start attacking and kill it within a few seconds. Double leig also comes out a whole lot later than brits can build their mortar pit, as well as the fact that some mortar pit placements (like the one posted by the OP) can not simply be killed with leigs.


The range difference is not that significant, especially when the LEIG gets to vet 1.

I urge you to actually try to use double LEIG to counter mortar pits. You will be surprised by the results. I don't even bother using mortar pits vs OKW anymore because of the ease with which LEIGs counter them.
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tenid
19 Feb 2016, 21:35 PM
#70
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The sheer hypocrisy from OKW players in particular on this is astounding. Every single one of these complaints and worse applies to the ISG. It has comparable range, is mobile, has incredible accuracy, is much harder to hit thanks to its small size and is practically immortal since it will be sitting next to a battlegroup HQ and eventually flak HQ. If by some stroke of luck you stand in the fire from a mortar pit long enough for it to get lucky and kill the ISG, you can just re-crew it.
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Iron Emperor
19 Feb 2016, 23:24 PM
#71
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 21:01 PMAerohank


The range difference is not that significant, especially when the LEIG gets to vet 1.

I urge you to actually try to use double LEIG to counter mortar pits. You will be surprised by the results. I don't even bother using mortar pits vs OKW anymore because of the ease with which LEIGs counter them.


Yesterday in a game against Choccy I really had a hard time to take out the mortar pits because of their high AOE. The range is probably not that big of a problem, but AOE and the firing speed seems a bit high.
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Iron Emperor
19 Feb 2016, 23:26 PM
#72
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Posts: 1653

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 21:35 PMtenid
The sheer hypocrisy from OKW players in particular on this is astounding. Every single one of these complaints and worse applies to the ISG. It has comparable range, is mobile, has incredible accuracy, is much harder to hit thanks to its small size and is practically immortal since it will be sitting next to a battlegroup HQ and eventually flak HQ. If by some stroke of luck you stand in the fire from a mortar pit long enough for it to get lucky and kill the ISG, you can just re-crew it.


I agree that it has an insanely high survivability, but when the mortars and ISG are in enough range for each other the AOE lets the mortar win (mostly from my own experience) Is it a problem, surely not, since the ISG has so much other outstanding qualities.
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Intelligence209
19 Feb 2016, 23:52 PM
#73
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2v2 speaking. It's extremely OP on small narrow maps, it being immobile yes but it's also durable. Creating a "build and forget" feel. Before too long your vet 3 with 1 or 2 vps in range wiping squads.. it takes both players to use a tremendous amount of effort to just defeat one. Brace allows 1 or both players to respond with a push back. And since most combos are US/UKF. US FRP keeps it that much safer. British just give a negative experience overall in this game IMO. FRP is one thing, sim city is another...
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RedT3rror
20 Feb 2016, 00:55 AM
#74
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2016, 21:01 PMAerohank


The range difference is not that significant, especially when the LEIG gets to vet 1.

I urge you to actually try to use double LEIG to counter mortar pits. You will be surprised by the results. I don't even bother using mortar pits vs OKW anymore because of the ease with which LEIGs counter them.


Just have a look for yourself and you will notice the vet1 range buff is very small (5%?).

As I´ve already pointed out, a properly placed mortar can hardly be countered. Even if they are placed far behind the lines they remain very efficient and pay off especially in attrition battles.
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Soheil
20 Feb 2016, 12:59 PM
#75
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and in most 2v2 1v1 maps like crossing wood u can place it close ur base bunkers and this pit easilly cover more than half the map, and get vet as fast as it placed then get repair rapidly. some one said its better 1 mortar instead 2,but in fact its range really anoying.
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Burts
20 Feb 2016, 13:15 PM
#76
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jump backJump back to quoted post20 Feb 2016, 00:55 AMRedT3rror


Just have a look for yourself and you will notice the vet1 range buff is very small (5%?).

As I´ve already pointed out, a properly placed mortar can hardly be countered. Even if they are placed far behind the lines they remain very efficient and pay off especially in attrition battles.



How exactly is it different than just buying 2 mobile mortars and moving them around?

They are more survivable + can move.
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RedT3rror
20 Feb 2016, 13:23 PM
#77
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jump backJump back to quoted post20 Feb 2016, 13:15 PMBurts



How exactly is it different than just buying 2 mobile mortars and moving them around?

They are more survivable + can move.


No they are not survivable. Artillery in mid- and endgame make sure that those pesky mortars get wiped out first. The amount of tanks and infantry with high dps are also doing their share.

Apart from that: 2 Ostheer mortars take about 12 pop while brits just take 8.
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broodwarjc
20 Feb 2016, 13:29 PM
#78
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I could see this becoming a problem when the new Emplacement commander releases, but right now...eh. It can be countered by Wher mortar spam and OKW ISG spam, both of which punish Tommies in cover so they aren't a waste of manpower. Also Volks with Shreks and flame nades, really tear down Mortar Pits fast.
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UnanimatedFelix
20 Feb 2016, 14:08 PM
#79
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I play a lot of Brits and I do have to admit that the mortar does feel a bit too strong at times. On some maps it's damn near impossible to hit and can cover a lot of areas.

I think that it's a symptom of map design and 3v3/4v4 maps being too cramped and chokepointy in general though. How I wish 4v4 maps had the same flanking options as 1v1...or that emplacements were never put into the game in the first place.
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atouba
21 Feb 2016, 01:18 AM
#80
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Yep alot of 3s/4s maps are so narrow that properly placed mortar pits can hardly be hit especially when they are placed behind some strong-high buildings.And for the Wehr,said by brits fanboys,they should always choose the FMH commander to counter the pits. Oh not to mention the bofors+mortar pits combined army.

The problem is the OKW has ISG at the least but what can the Wehr do without the FMH?The only counter to the emplacements is the common mortars which is outranged by the pits.The range is 80 vs 115.What a huge disadvantage...And don't forget the bofors,with indirect fire ability which is for free,they can almost kill the entire mortar squard or force them back.The common mortars really can't stand vs the brits emplacements.BTW, can the FMH be useful all the time?I'm afraid sometimes they are just not that accurate...
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