Its not only the Quad. it comes at 6/7 min mark and if u want a AT gun at this time you cant make many T1 units. And this means you are weaker against Cons/Rifles. Also the munition at this mark is by 120 mun enough to build 1 mine and Medic tent.
it would be okay if the 222 could be a effective counter against it.
And sure if you are losing the early as axis against cons/maxim or Rifles, its quite impossible to come back after the M5 hits the field. another problem is this horrible map design like Kharkov North side or Kholodny Ferma West Side. its almost auto lose for axis.
Stuart and Quad rush are pretty retarded,but....
11 Aug 2015, 11:36 AM
#141
Posts: 160
Aka Danny
11 Aug 2015, 11:39 AM
#142
Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4
Permanently BannedSo if we go offtopic, give soviet nondoc DP/ppsh for cons, why not Kappa.
Relic killing our game, lets save COH2 from Relic 
If you're not a ахіs lover when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a soviet fanboy by the time you're 30, you have no brain.
Relic delenda est
If Dane will be have son, he will be call him (Sturmgeschütz)
Brotheres, what we do in coh2, ehoes in eternity
If you're not a ахіs lover when you're 20, you have no heart. If you're not a soviet fanboy by the time you're 30, you have no brain.
Relic delenda est
If Dane will be have son, he will be call him (Sturmgeschütz)
Brotheres, what we do in coh2, ehoes in eternity
11 Aug 2015, 12:47 PM
#143
Posts: 508
Soviets don't need to avoid tiers at all, and USF only does because Captain is objectively better in every way. Like the issue is that even if you rush AT guns as Ostheer you still can't stave off light vehicles, and in the case of the Quad you can easily kill the offending AT gun.
You're still not really supposed to build every tier as Soviets. If you have some examples of good players doing that, I'll concede that point. As USF going captain then LT has disadvantages compared to getting major next, though I'll admit that people do that sometimes and it does work. Regardless, if we're talking about restrictive game play, having to go captain first to counter the Luchs still qualifies, surely?
It's just that Axis lacks early game mobile AT. Allies don't have this problem because Axis just doesn't have early game light vehicles that are mobile and hard hitting. The flak track has a set up time, and that's about it for AI Axis light vehicles. The P2 comes after the "light vehicle window"
The P2 does arrive a bit late but it can arrive before the first soviet T3 vehicle. And the flak track is also pretty effective. Good players use it late game, even.
The ML-20 is much more impactful and hard hitting than the LefH. Mostly due to the fact Allies don't rely heavily on defensive emplacements, trucks, and whatnot ans so forth. Not having a guaranteed LeFH counter as Allies isn't an automatic game loss.
Hell, OKW doesn't even have a doctrine with a counter
Not having a guaranteed ML-20 counter isn't an auto loss for Axis either. The point is that for both sides, unless you want to just get shot at by a howitzer the entire game (which isn't fun even if the LeFH isn't as powerful as the ML-20), you have to pick certain doctrines.
11 Aug 2015, 13:00 PM
#144
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
Its not only the Quad. it comes at 6/7 min mark and if u want a AT gun at this time you cant make many T1 units. And this means you are weaker against Cons/Rifles. Also the munition at this mark is by 120 mun enough to build 1 mine and Medic tent.
it would be okay if the 222 could be a effective counter against it.
And sure if you are losing the early as axis against cons/maxim or Rifles, its quite impossible to come back after the M5 hits the field. another problem is this horrible map design like Kharkov North side or Kholodny Ferma West Side. its almost auto lose for axis.
OStheer has a super strong MG42 T0 starting unit and 60mp more... how many units to you need from T1 before going T2? I mean Sov isn't getting more mp than you, if he has the resource to build T3 + M5, you have the resource as well to build T2 + pak.
Imo, from what I face (and I'm not playing Sov 1vs1) I see a lot of Ostheer players overextending because they have their MG 1st unit. So they send it mid and spam gren to try to control 1/2 of the map before 5min mark.
If it works vs player that doesn't know to flank, it doesn't vs player that know how to flank... Because for 1 gren you send to cap somewhere, Allied player will have 2 cons/rifles to counter him.
Many time the MG is almost useless the 5 first minutes because the Ostheer play try to control too much territory... until he is pushed back and the MG become effective to lock his last territory. Too late vs a m5 for sure.
Your perception of being overwhelmed by cons/rifles may come from this.
11 Aug 2015, 22:05 PM
#145
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
After some testing....
-It takes about 35 second to kill a T-70 with 1 shrek assuming no misses
-At max (35) range there's about a 55% chance of missing.
-To kill a T-70 with 2 PTRS's it takes about 17 seconds. With 0 chance of missing at max range.
So yah, nah. I'll take PTRS's instead of shreks when facing off against light vehicles any day.
I actually tested this; a salvo of 3 shreks killed the T-70 only 5 out of 20 times lol. Dat max range miss chance.
-It takes about 35 second to kill a T-70 with 1 shrek assuming no misses
-At max (35) range there's about a 55% chance of missing.
-To kill a T-70 with 2 PTRS's it takes about 17 seconds. With 0 chance of missing at max range.
So yah, nah. I'll take PTRS's instead of shreks when facing off against light vehicles any day.
At the same time it takes ONE salvo from 3 Shreck squads to kill T-70 and they would actually be able to kill T-34 with them.
I actually tested this; a salvo of 3 shreks killed the T-70 only 5 out of 20 times lol. Dat max range miss chance.
11 Aug 2015, 22:30 PM
#146
1 
Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
After some testing....
-It takes about 35 second to kill a T-70 with 1 shrek assuming no misses
-At max (35) range there's about a 55% chance of missing.
-To kill a T-70 with 2 PTRS's it takes about 17 seconds. With 0 chance of missing at max range.
So yah, nah. I'll take PTRS's instead of shreks when facing off against light vehicles any day.
I actually tested this; a salvo of 3 shreks killed the T-70 only 5 out of 20 times lol. Dat max range miss chance.
Im curious,how did you test this? A t70 not returning fire? were the volks being kited?was the T70 just sitting there ambient?
being kited by a T70 while having AT rifles sounds absoulutely horrible.
look at guards vs luchs,do you think volks would really fare that much better with AT rifles vs a t70,which arguably has an evne more lethal cannon than a luchs?? The shrek has a massive benefit of straight alpha damage when it DOES hit. No player is gonna let you land 7-8 volleys of AT rifle fire on a T70.... Honestly a T70 kiting or just simply pushing you around would shit on a squad on volks and wipe them in ~ 10 seconds.. no matter which upgrade they have.
So I dont really understand the push for AT rifles from you. It really doesnt make sense.
EDIT* not only that but the difference between ready-aim-fire time(Quite possibly the most important stat of all,because if you dont actually start firing before the T70 is on top of you pushing you,then what>) for the shrek and at rifle is so massively favoring the shrek it isnt funny. Who cares if you "dont miss" if you never g et to fire to begin with?
double edit* im sure guards would KILL for a shrek vs a luchs,also.
11 Aug 2015, 23:11 PM
#147
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
The shrek has 35 range. The T-70 has 40. AT rifles have 40 range. You can't kite AT rifles with a 40 range tank.
I sat them both at max range (35 so the shrek could hit). I then sat some guards at max range and tested. This was to ensure both were getting as much chance to miss. Although it's technically impossible with PTRS's...
It has the benefit assuming a lot of things:
-That he is in range
-You don't miss
-Your shrek hasn't fired at something else earlier and is reloading because you can't stop it from firing.
Because AT rifles are better when facing light vehicles and I like my units having a diverse choice of upgrades.
The T-70 would need to close with the squad, and in doing so would get hit a few times. Also it wouldn't be able to do so to grens without getting fausted. Pushing with a T-70 is also a bad idea since it might put you into range of a Rackten.
I wouldn't. Have fun being kited to death/missing 2/3'rds of your shots at max range.
Im curious,how did you test this? A t70 not returning fire? were the volks being kited?was the T70 just sitting there ambient?
I sat them both at max range (35 so the shrek could hit). I then sat some guards at max range and tested. This was to ensure both were getting as much chance to miss. Although it's technically impossible with PTRS's...
look at guards vs luchs,do you think volks would really fare that much better with AT rifles vs a t70,which arguably has an evne more lethal cannon than a luchs?? The shrek has a massive benefit of straight alpha damage when it DOES hit. No player is gonna let you land 7-8 volleys of AT rifle fire on a T70.... Honestly a T70 kiting or just simply pushing you around would shit on a squad on volks and wipe them in ~ 10 seconds.. no matter which upgrade they have.
It has the benefit assuming a lot of things:
-That he is in range
-You don't miss
-Your shrek hasn't fired at something else earlier and is reloading because you can't stop it from firing.
So I dont really understand the push for AT rifles from you. It really doesnt make sense.
Because AT rifles are better when facing light vehicles and I like my units having a diverse choice of upgrades.
EDIT* not only that but the difference between ready-aim-fire time(Quite possibly the most important stat of all,because if you dont actually start firing before the T70 is on top of you pushing you,then what>) for the shrek and at rifle is so massively favoring the shrek it isnt funny. Who cares if you "dont miss" if you never g et to fire to begin with?
The T-70 would need to close with the squad, and in doing so would get hit a few times. Also it wouldn't be able to do so to grens without getting fausted. Pushing with a T-70 is also a bad idea since it might put you into range of a Rackten.
double edit* im sure guards would KILL for a shrek vs a luchs,also.
I wouldn't. Have fun being kited to death/missing 2/3'rds of your shots at max range.
11 Aug 2015, 23:20 PM
#148
1 Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
The shrek has 35 range. The T-70 has 40. AT rifles have 40 range. You can't kite AT rifles with a 40 range tank.
AT rifles have 2-5~ seconds of time where they dont fire at all. They can only be used defensively in green cover to any good effect. A squad of guards will lose to a luchs on the flanks 100% of the time unless they button,which if every axis squad could do,would completely delete units like T70. AT rifles are not good vs tanks like Luchs,T70,Stuart. Play some more soviets vs luchs with your theory and you will change your mind rapidly.
I sat them both at max range (35 so the shrek could hit). I then sat some guards at max range and tested. This was to ensure both were getting as much chance to miss. Although it's technically impossible with PTRS's...
Doesnt happen in real games vs real players
It has the benefit assuming a lot of things:
-That he is in range
-You don't miss
-Your shrek hasn't fired at something else earlier and is reloading because you can't stop it from firing.
Massive aim time. Which you are not considering at all. absoulutely crippling con to AT rifles.
Because AT rifles are better when facing light vehicles and I like my units having a diverse choice of upgrades.
Give me a pershing while we're at it?
The T-70 would need to close with the squad, and in doing so would get hit a few times. Also it wouldn't be able to do so to grens without getting fausted. Pushing with a T-70 is also a bad idea since it might put you into range of a Rackten.
It would get hit with two volleys max. And you would need 2-3 volks to actually kill the T70 on approach. This is all assuming the T70 is being used on the main lines and not on like the flanks like T70s are normally used. T70 will always shit on a single squad,and depending on the skill and luck of the soviet player,multiple squads.
And grenadiers with any AT weapon that early on combined with faust would be as OP as rangers with sticky nades and stolen shrek vs axis vehicles. In other words,it wont happen
I wouldn't. Have fun being kited to death/missing 2/3'rds of your shots at max range.
Have fun being blasted to death and getting off one volley before losing the whole squad on retreat and dropping the shitty AT rifle.
11 Aug 2015, 23:41 PM
#149
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
AT rifles have 2-5~ seconds of time where they dont fire at all. They can only be used defensively in green cover to any good effect. A squad of guards will lose to a luchs on the flanks 100% of the time unless they button,which if every axis squad could do,would completely delete units like T70. AT rifles are not good vs tanks like Luchs,T70,Stuart. Play some more soviets vs luchs with your theory and you will change your mind rapidly.
T-70 =/= Luchs. The Luchs come much later in the game, has more health and better mobility as well as a rapid fire autocannon instead of a regular gun. T-70's also can't cloak. Yes AT rifles have a decently long aim time, doesn't mean they are useless.
Doesnt happen in real games vs real players
You have never used shreks at max range before?
Massive aim time. Which you are not considering at all. absoulutely crippling con to AT rifles.
The time it takes to aim is nowhere close to how long it takes to aim and reload a shrek. If he catches you after you just fired your shrek then your screwed.
It would get hit with two volleys max. And you would need 2-3 volks to actually kill the T70 on approach. This is all assuming the T70 is being used on the main lines and not on like the flanks like T70s are normally used. T70 will always shit on a single squad,and depending on the skill and luck of the soviet player,multiple squads.
3 AT rifles would do 120 damage in the first volley which is 1/3 of it's health. 6 would do 2/3'rds in the first volley.
Give me a pershing while we're at it?
Craaaaaaaabs
And grenadiers with any AT weapon that early on combined with faust would be as OP as rangers with sticky nades and stolen shrek vs axis vehicles. In other words,it wont happen
Grens with 2 AT rifles being OP? What. Especially if it was gated behind BP1.
The entire point I'm trying to make here is that it would give Axis some soft AT while not gimping the squads AI performance. As a trade off no shrek or LMG42. Of course I guess we can theory craft all day but I fail to see how adding more options to the game is bad.
12 Aug 2015, 05:03 AM
#150
Posts: 1439
Do you have problems understanding English language or are you just stupid?
How the hell can you argue with Cookiez logic here? You didn't provide any sensible reason for this update except "I want" and you keep saying an inferior AT weapon is working better than a superior one, only because apparently you are unable to use it.
Why don't you actually start separate topic and ask people opinion about swapping Volks Shrek for PTRS like weapon and see it for yourself.
If you're asking for PTRS like AT weapon being additional option for Volks so they can have both that's not going to happened because what's the fucking point of having the very same kind of update twice? Unless you want them to use both options at once. Then no, that would be OP.
How the hell can you argue with Cookiez logic here? You didn't provide any sensible reason for this update except "I want" and you keep saying an inferior AT weapon is working better than a superior one, only because apparently you are unable to use it.
Why don't you actually start separate topic and ask people opinion about swapping Volks Shrek for PTRS like weapon and see it for yourself.
If you're asking for PTRS like AT weapon being additional option for Volks so they can have both that's not going to happened because what's the fucking point of having the very same kind of update twice? Unless you want them to use both options at once. Then no, that would be OP.
12 Aug 2015, 07:13 AM
#151
Posts: 17891 | Subs: 8
T-70 =/= Luchs. The Luchs come much later in the game, has more health and better mobility as well as a rapid fire autocannon instead of a regular gun. T-70's also can't cloak. Yes AT rifles have a decently long aim time, doesn't mean they are useless.
8min vs 8min 30sec with conversion truck.
Oh so much later!
You have never used shreks at max range before?
Have you? Further claims tell me you didn't.
The time it takes to aim is nowhere close to how long it takes to aim and reload a shrek. If he catches you after you just fired your shrek then your screwed.
That explains all that 360 no scope, no aim shots shrecks always do as soon as armor is in range.
3 AT rifles would do 120 damage in the first volley which is 1/3 of it's health. 6 would do 2/3'rds in the first volley.
That is still dead T-70 vs damaged luchs.
Grens with 2 AT rifles being OP? What. Especially if it was gated behind BP1.
Yes, because you'd have single squad for everything.
Mega gren spam into whatever armor you pick much?
Why it would work? Because allied vehicles are made of cardboard and promises of better future.
The entire point I'm trying to make here is that it would give Axis some soft AT while not gimping the squads AI performance. As a trade off no shrek or LMG42.
And why would axis need that? OKW have abundance of AT in every tier at every stage of the game, ost also doesn't struggle with what they have.
Of course I guess we can theory craft all day
Yeah, thats like... what you do all day.
I fail to see how adding more options to the game is bad.
Lets add lend lease bazookas and stock DPs to conscripts and find out!
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
12 Aug 2015, 07:22 AM
#152
Posts: 742 | Subs: 1
8min vs 8min 30sec with conversion
Good luck rushing a luch in 1v1 perspective with fuel conversion:
- no medic truck
- with so poor ammo you will have no shrek or mines ( or maybe 1 ? )
- m3 and quad is going to have a lot of fun, really
Maybe you can show us a replay where this build was viable against a correct SU player ?
12 Aug 2015, 07:31 AM
#153
Posts: 176
Alex honestly the biggest problem with giving grens an AT upgrade is that they also have a snare. There's a reason that snares no longer work beyond a certain health threshold and it's so that tanks aren't forced to run like fools from mainline infantry.
If grens had both AT and snares then almost all allied armor becomes worthless. If I had that option then I'd give all my grens that upgrade and use p grens to defend against enemies closing to effective range.
Yes, Dank Hunters have both AT weapons and snares, but remember that it's doctrinal and axis armor is heavier anyways, and Soviets have no non doctrinal handheld AT.
The only way I could see this gren AT gun upgrade being plausible is if it was doctrinal.
And OKW certainly has no problems with enemy vehicles, so I think they're fine. as is.
If grens had both AT and snares then almost all allied armor becomes worthless. If I had that option then I'd give all my grens that upgrade and use p grens to defend against enemies closing to effective range.
Yes, Dank Hunters have both AT weapons and snares, but remember that it's doctrinal and axis armor is heavier anyways, and Soviets have no non doctrinal handheld AT.
The only way I could see this gren AT gun upgrade being plausible is if it was doctrinal.
And OKW certainly has no problems with enemy vehicles, so I think they're fine. as is.
12 Aug 2015, 14:46 PM
#154
1 Posts: 2075 | Subs: 2
Remove the instant suppression from the Quad and I think its ok.
12 Aug 2015, 17:22 PM
#155
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
8min vs 8min 30sec with conversion truck.
Oh so much later!
This assumes the OKW player controls both fuels, has conversion running, and controls both munition points. As well as converts all of his HQ's instantly (which won't happen).
Have you? Further claims tell me you didn't.
Obviously Iv never in 200 games as OKW
That explains all that 360 no scope, no aim shots shrecks always do as soon as armor is in range.
If the tank drives into range after the shrek just shot...
That is still dead T-70 vs damaged luchs.
Uh, that's the point?
Yes, because you'd have single squad for everything.
Mega gren spam into whatever armor you pick much?
Why it would work? Because allied vehicles are made of cardboard and promises of better future.
PTRS's aren't exactly pro-bono against higher level mediums. Only lights and lower level mediums get miffed by them.
And why would axis need that? OKW have abundance of AT in every tier at every stage of the game, ost also doesn't struggle with what they have.
An abundance of hard AT. A distinct lack of soft AT. Although we are only operating under the assumption of abundance if your spamming shreks and racktens. Which you can't do early game at all.
Yeah, thats like... what you do all day.
Obviously I theory crafted my way to top 100 as OKW.
Lets add lend lease bazookas and stock DPs to conscripts and find out!
Are you feeling it Mr. Krabs?
12 Aug 2015, 17:39 PM
#156
Posts: 1439
Alexzandvar why don't you create separate topic in GAMEPLAY section as this is not a balance issue and stop trolling this one?
Who knows you may find people who also think this is a great idea so you can talk about it somewhere else?
Who knows you may find people who also think this is a great idea so you can talk about it somewhere else?
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