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8 Mar 2015, 14:08 PM
#81
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

The Panther was in that awkward spot between medium and heavy tank due to it's tonnage.

Panther: 44.8 tons

Tiger: 54 tons

T34: 26 tons.

The Panther weighs twice as much as the premier soviet medium tank. The Panther isn't in anyway similar to a medium tank except in the fact that it's fast and mobile.

It's in a class of it's own, it's (arguably) the only Tank Hunter in the game. And it's also bloody expensive.

The issue with the Panther is OKW players rushing it, not anything to do with the unit itself.


Not arguing semantics.

Not only do I still not care, but it still doesn't matter, because the proposal would affect all vehicles regardless of classification, weight and design.

And the issue with the panther is the enormous front armour and speed, which it historically had, because of non-existent side and rear armour.

It's nowhere near as expensive as the late war heavies at well under 200 fuel, the fact it's just as hard (if not harder) to kill than some of them is absurd. Introduce side armour- suddenly its flank-able, snare-able if extended, and the dedicated sniper tank hunter no longer has 180 drgrees of turbo protection from the front. A 90 degree cone of good armor, perfect for a dedicated tank hunter, just like the TD's with 50 range.
8 Mar 2015, 14:09 PM
#82
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2015, 14:07 PMBurts



By your definiation IS-2 is also a medium tank, since it weighs 46 tonnes.


No, by my definition the Panther isn't a medium tank. Most mediums weight around 20~ tons.

The Panther is a heavy tank by weight class, but moves fast enough that it isn't considered one.
8 Mar 2015, 14:10 PM
#83
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Not arguing semantics.

Not only do I still not care, but it still doesn't matter, because the proposal would affect all vehicles regardless of classification, weight and design.

And the issue with the panther is the enormous front armour and speed, which it historically had, because of non-existent side and rear armour.

It's nowhere near as expensive as the late war heavies at well under 200 fuel, the fact it's just as hard (if not harder) to kill than some of them is absurd. Introduce side armour- suddenly its flank-able, snare-able if extended, and the dedicated sniper tank hunter no longer has 180 drgrees of turbo protection from the front. A 90 degree cone of good armor, perfect for a dedicated tank hunter, just like the TD's with 50 range.


The Ostheer Panther is the most expensive Ostheer tank in the game due to Teching, and the OKW Panther is able to be rushed thanks to fast OKW teching.

And the TD's have 60 range, not 50.
8 Mar 2015, 14:16 PM
#84
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

No, by my definition the Panther isn't a medium tank. Most mediums weight around 20~ tons.
The Panther is a heavy tank by weight class, but moves fast enough that it isn't considered one.


I don't care what your definition is. I repeat; it's classified as a medium. That's all I give the smallest of flying gardens about.

The Ostheer Panther is the most expensive Ostheer tank in the game due to Teching, and the OKW Panther is able to be rushed thanks to fast OKW teching.

And the TD's have 60 range, not 50.


Meant to say 50+, missed the all important symbol, my apologies.

And the call in meta isn't my concern right now, nor does it actually make the panther more expensive, stop throwing that fllacy around.

The cost to make it available is higher, and also comes with the werfer and brummbar. But the tank itself is less than 200, each and every time, no matter how many you buy.


And this still makes no difference to its battlefield role and current disproportionate protection.
8 Mar 2015, 14:19 PM
#85
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



I don't care what your definition is. I repeat; it's classified as a medium. That's all I give the smallest of flying gardens about.



Meant to say 50+, missed the all important symbol, my apologies.

And the call in meta isn't my concern right now, nor does it actually make the panther more expensive, stop throwing that fllacy around.

The cost to make it available is higher, and also comes with the werfer and brummbar. But the tank itself is less than 200, each and every time, no matter how many you buy.


And this still makes no difference to its battlefield role and current disproportionate protection.


It has everything to do with it's roll, because cost is what justifies effectiveness. It's 175 fuel and for Ostheer you need to spend a buttload of fuel and MP to get to it, so typically your not going to see an Ost panther till you already have MORE than enough tools to deal with it.

If he's getting Panthers he isn't going to have shit for nothing to deal with your infantry so just go hog wild and support your infantry with AT guns which his Panther can't do jack shit about.

For OKW it's a different story because the Panther comes out earlier, but it's still fairly expensive at 232.5 fuel adjusted for reduced income. It means he's not going to be getting anything else for a while.
8 Mar 2015, 14:22 PM
#86
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

You have to be very careful when changing the Panther, lest we go back to the days were T4 is never ever built. Honestly if were going to make the Panther worse it's fuel cost needs to be lowered or the other units in it's tier need a buff, badly.
8 Mar 2015, 14:26 PM
#87
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1151

You have to be very careful when changing the Panther, lest we go back to the days were T4 is never ever built. Honestly if were going to make the Panther worse it's fuel cost needs to be lowered or the other units in it's tier need a buff, badly.
Who even started this "making the Panther worse" nonsense? It´s fine, not over-performing as in 2013, not utter garbage as in 2014.

A clever Panther player will keep the frontal armor to you and stay at range. God forbid he gets rewarded for that.
8 Mar 2015, 14:28 PM
#88
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Who even started this "making the Panther worse" nonsense? It´s fine, not over-performing as in 2013, not utter garbage as in 2014.

A clever Panther player will keep the frontal armor to you and stay at range. God forbid he gets rewarded for that.


People are angry that all they see is Panthers, when the reason this happens is because Ostheer t3 is garbage and OKW doesn't actually have any medium tanks.
8 Mar 2015, 16:30 PM
#89
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



No, by my definition the Panther isn't a medium tank. Most mediums weight around 20~ tons.

The Panther is a heavy tank by weight class, but moves fast enough that it isn't considered one.


Heavy Tanks are defined by role and utilization. Germany official classified it as a Medium Tank. German Heavy Tanks had their own independent battalions around 45 strong and were typically meant to employed at specific points to try to breakthrough or to help bolster a defense. Panthers were employed in the typical fashion as other Medium Tanks.

Also why are adjusting fuel cost for OKW just because they get less?

edit source:http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer-V_Panther.php
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer-VI_Tiger.php

(you will find nothing to say Panthers were fielded as heavy tanks and used in their independent formations I have checked and all immediate sources should being used in Conventional Panzer Divisions)
8 Mar 2015, 17:37 PM
#90
avatar of sir muffin

Posts: 531

what if... now old on with me for a minute guys?

ostruppen become the t1 unit, obviously get a buff to bring them equal to grens, and make them more expensive. 6 man squad.
their veterancy shouldn't scale as well with USF and SU respective mainline infantry. and eventually lose all engagements with them at vet 3.

their offensive bonus when in cover should be replaced with a defensive bonus. this defensive bonus should make them come on top against rifleman and conscripts on any long range engagement.

instead of getting panzershreks when you upgrade the battlephase, make a global upgrade at t1 for the same price as ATnades for soviets

grens move to t2 and replace panzergrens grens should cost 320 manpower. they should have more armor, than originally, but deal the same damage. they can be upgraded with 1 shrek, 60 munis. 1 additional shrek for the same cost. also upgrade for 60 munis: 1 lmg42 for stationary firepower, and 2 stg44's for 60 munis.

the T2 building will hold a host of upgrades for the gren. these upgrades should cost fuel. and it should be the only way for grens to get veterancy. all the other units should vet the same. thier veterancy stats should be similar to it is now.

the panzergren should be implemented in t4 with a cost of 500 manpower. the panzergren should start with STG44's. they should be a tad more supression resistant, and have more HP and ARMOR than mostly everything. their veterancy should scale amazingly. these units should be used for last minute capping in prolonged matches when the player's infantry is destroyed. they should NOT be able to be upgraded with a panzershrek. this is an OH equiviant to vet 5 volks.

the t4 panzergren matchups: they shouldn't win against EVERYTHING like obersoldaten. they should win at medium range against everything. short range shocktroopers should win. and at long range their DPS should start to drop off to the point that maybe a high-vet penal or guards squad should be able to take them on.

notes: of course the HMG42 would be have to brought up to a workable state. that's one of the bigger problems that plauge the faction. but we can't let them overbuff it. or it will become rediciously overpowered like it was in a early patch of coh2.

the halftrack should get an upgrade at battlephase 3 to attach it with rocket launchers to provide indirect arty for an arty-starved faction.

the t1 mortar needs to be toned back a bit. it's fire-rate needs to be reduced.


sniper balance!:
the german sniper is fine. buffing him is stupid because he's at the level that all sniper should be: so remove the soviet sniper's spotter and the balance will be great. as well as adding NON DOCTRINAL SNIPER-LIKE UNITS to USF and OKW. for example: the british faction where you could pay munis to deploy the squad marksman to shoot targeted unit.

i believe rear echelon should be able to be upgraded with different weapons to turn them into different types of utility squads. one of these upgrades will be a sharpshooter package that increases the range and gives them an ability to one-shot kill target unit for like.. 35 munis. this would help deal with snipers. i will make a seperate thread about this

as for OKW and sniper balance. i believe they get an advantage enough so they should be okay using the kubelwagon to hunt and kill any snipers. kubelwagon should not be able to supress, and it's speed and damage should be increased. but that's a whole other thread.

IN SUMMARY:

the purpose of the changes above is to even the playing field early game. and make it a tad easier for the OH player to defeat USF and SOV rifle spam. if they micro well they should be able to push their advantage without needing to wait for t3 tech. the grens with fuel global upgrades that i spoke about will do just this. and if the player would rather go push his advantage and rush armor. the ostruppen should do what they're designed to do: and fall off. this means the OH player can't have SUPER QUALITY INFANTRY and SUPER QUALITY TANKS at the same time. they have to choose. if the game goes late and your squads have been wiped. the ability to call in a faux 'superunit' of panzergrens to help cap without calling in ostruppen to immeadtly get wiped by all the vet 3 rifles and cons is a great equalizer.

what do you think? pls give me some comments

inb4 tell me to GET THE FUCK BACK TO VCOH YOU NOOB

i wish. but OF has ruined vcoh for me too :(

tl;dr: read it you silly moose
8 Mar 2015, 18:04 PM
#91
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
If side armor becomes a thing, so should armor angling. Atleast to a small degree.
8 Mar 2015, 23:25 PM
#92
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Heavy Tanks are defined by role and utilization. Germany official classified it as a Medium Tank. German Heavy Tanks had their own independent battalions around 45 strong and were typically meant to employed at specific points to try to breakthrough or to help bolster a defense. Panthers were employed in the typical fashion as other Medium Tanks.

Also why are adjusting fuel cost for OKW just because they get less?

edit source:http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers.htm
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer-V_Panther.php
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Panzer-VI_Tiger.php

(you will find nothing to say Panthers were fielded as heavy tanks and used in their independent formations I have checked and all immediate sources should being used in Conventional Panzer Divisions)


I always make sure to adjust fuel prices when discussing rushing and teching because OKW reduced income is partly what justifies it getting access to it's best tanks faster. For instance; because the Panther costs an arm and a leg it means when you get it you won't be getting anything else for a while.
10 Mar 2015, 06:14 AM
#93
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

I think there are a couple problems with the Wehrmacht Ostheer and I think the small differences make the faction as a whole harder to play.
Early Game.

If you lose the early game as any faction its an uphill battle the rest of the game if you can manage a few squad wipes but with OH i think it becomes far more difficult to pull yourself back into the game that it does other factions.
Note: Many of these problems are for 1v1s only.
Early game
1st problem I usually encounter playing Ostheer early game is the many 1v1 battles occurring around the map. Rifles destroy grens in or out of cover because they are just over 1 model more expensive than grens (30MP to reinforce grens is a bit much). Against conscripts grens must find a building or the cons will hoorah right up to them and defeat them with their superior close quarters.
2nd problem is the OH support weapons namely the mg42. its wide arc of fire is very deceptive and buildings are both strafable, weak, and death houses against the allies who have many counters to them including molo, nades, flamers, shocks, BARS, mortars etc. The allies also have many VERY effective ways to flank destroy and capture the OH support weapon BEFORE it has a chance to move or even sometimes retreat (Smoke nade hoorah etc.). If you compare this to Ostheers abilities to flank and wipe they have, no smoke (other than mortar which is too slow), rifle nades (my best friends), and PGren bundle nade. Ok OH has very few flanking abilites. What about just wipe on the retreat? Not possible without Pgrens because lmg must be stationary to fire and grens on the move have very low DPS without G43 (doctrinal and nerfed). OHs general ability to recapture enemy support weapons and wipe squads just isn’t there which makes it that much harder to pull back in the early game.
10 Mar 2015, 06:16 AM
#94
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

3rd problem i have as OH is there heavy reliance on munitions to survive. Grens need lmgs, pios need flamer to counter buildings and sweeper to counter soviet mine spam and Pgrens shreks are just ridiculous when any medium tank can one shot wipe the squad. Even their tanks have muni upgrades. Seriously. The reason OH has the fuel muni conversion is because of any faction needs it, it’s the Wehrmacht.

4th problem specifically with the OH is the wipes. It happens to every faction but OH wins by a long shot. 4 man pios, 4 man mortars, 4 man mgs, 4 man Pgrens, 4 man grens, 4 man everything not doctrinal. Many problem isn’t the 4 man weapons teams but the 4 man grens and Pgrens. Raise of hands to those who’ve lost a full man Pgren squad with 120 munitions upgrade to a 30 munitions mine? Then later see the enemy caring your shreks? Yes it’s a problem and its mainly against OH….. ( and USF .50 cal).
With OH losing most of the early game 1v1 engagements the player tends to use combined arms to defeat the enemy or just blobs grens. In 1v1s OH blobbing is generally ineffective as it means you can only cap a small portion of the map. Demos as shut this down. Unless you can force your opponent off the map early game you will have a hard time holding territory making both muni upgrades and teching very difficult. With hard teching and expensive upgrades it makes OH very weak in the 5-10 minute stage where allied vehicles hit the field. Pgren shreks are a waste of munitions as it prevents lmgs and renders the squad purely an AT unit that gets wiped vs mediums. Fausts are expensive for OH as they needs muni for hospital bunker lmgs etc. Only other option to counter is pak40. Purely AT unit, 4 man squad, and easily flanked and taken due to lack of retreat abilities. These problems compound on maps like both semoiskeys, La gleize, and Stalingrad. Most good OH players will of course veto these maps.
Mid game
If you can survive early game with a decent amount of fuel you can tech to t3 and get tanks. Against USF youll be shut down by USFs jacksons high damage and range. Unless you have your own armor you will have a hard time especially vs Sherman HE rounds. IMO OH has advantage over SU due to P4>T34/76 but that’s about it.
Late game
In 1v1s teching to t4 is both risky and rare with little advantages. Brummbar is UP and its pathing makes it very flankable and gimpy (nice wipes tho). Panthers are great but only against tanks. Against USF it counters jacksons beautifully but leave you helpless against rifle blobs. Panzer werfers are only truly effective close up vs blobs and very fragile. Tigers are great vs infantry but vs heavies (ISU JS2) and jacksons they are inadequate.
Final remarks/ opinions
Cons>Grens(both vanilla)
Shocks <<everything infantry
Rifles << everything infantry
JS2,>Tiger
ISU>Ele
Maxim>mg42
Jacksons>all T3
OH Halftrack< All counter parts (even though its t2)
Squad wipes OH< all other factions
These are only my opinions yes but not without reasons supporting them. Overall I think Ostheer needs a bit of help.
10 Mar 2015, 22:30 PM
#95
avatar of pussyking
Donator 11

Posts: 551

Wehr is fine
10 Mar 2015, 22:42 PM
#96
avatar of AssaultPlazma

Posts: 300



I always make sure to adjust fuel prices when discussing rushing and teching because OKW reduced income is partly what justifies it getting access to it's best tanks faster. For instance; because the Panther costs an arm and a leg it means when you get it you won't be getting anything else for a while.


I dont understand.... pretty sure this has been brought up before......

I Make 8$ an Hour
You make 10$ an Hour
We both want a Hamburger Meal(MURICA) for 6$
It cost 6$ for both of us

P.S. Thanks for telling who that is in your signature, really cool/funny show!

Wehr is fine


uhhhhhh no its not fine care to explain how its fine to us?
10 Mar 2015, 22:48 PM
#97
avatar of pussyking
Donator 11

Posts: 551

Its fine becouse its balanced against soviets and good in team games.
10 Mar 2015, 22:53 PM
#98
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2043 | Subs: 1

Its fine becouse its balanced against soviets and good in team games.


What about vs USF and in 1v1's?
10 Mar 2015, 23:00 PM
#99
avatar of pussyking
Donator 11

Posts: 551



What about vs USF and in 1v1's?


Grens with lmgs beat rifles in the long run, just keep grens alive, gain vet, hold your fuel point, upgrade lmgs, get a pak, consolidate power and smash usf with one blow late game
10 Mar 2015, 23:39 PM
#100
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7209 | Subs: 1



Grens with lmgs beat rifles in the long run, just keep grens alive, gain vet, hold your fuel point, upgrade lmgs, get a pak, consolidate power and smash usf with one blow late game


OR just lose on the first 10mins :P
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