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russian armor

whats the reason

14 Mar 2024, 20:31 PM
#1
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1

Relics recent post stated that the people wanted more maps and battlegroups.

well guess what? 2 maps for a gamemode

do they really need a survey for that? serious question. what is the problem?

also why are features like surrender button missing that were present in coh2?

ist this some software development problem? Or management problem?

as a rookie i would assume:

sequel software = old software + new features

but more often the not
sequel software = old software with less features

15 Mar 2024, 08:49 AM
#2
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3143 | Subs: 2

Keep in mind that CoH3 is based off of DoW3, which if I remember correctly didn't have a lot of the older normal features so they've had to port a lot of things from CoH2 which of course means that not everything made it for one reason or another.
15 Mar 2024, 11:33 AM
#3
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1

Keep in mind that CoH3 is based off of DoW3, which if I remember correctly didn't have a lot of the older normal features so they've had to port a lot of things from CoH2 which of course means that not everything made it for one reason or another.


But you would assume athat a newer Engine ist more flexible. Exactly for that reason to not have the same problems like older versions. So why it is so hard to implement something like a "give up" button with an newer Engine which should be aware of the features already existing
15 Mar 2024, 12:36 PM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

Keep in mind that CoH3 is based off of DoW3, which if I remember correctly didn't have a lot of the older normal features so they've had to port a lot of things from CoH2 which of course means that not everything made it for one reason or another.

If this was steam forum, you would be getting clown awards now.

So let do a tl;dr history lesson for you:

CoH1 was a game.
CoH2 was pretty much a mod to CoH1, reusing assets and code everywhere while stripping everything that made CoH1 belowed only to add it back later after their "casualization beam" failure.
CoH3 was made from scratch as new engine had to be written for it, so things were not hard coded as they were in previous games, therefore development time had to go into engine itself instead of using engine to build on, couple that with experienced developers and designers leaving and you have release CoH3. It got to where it should be with 1.4 and is mechanically superior to CoH1 and 2. What's missing now is QoL of low relevance, hence it is not in yet.

DoW3 was management of relic completely losing touch with playerbases of DoW (DoW1 players are not the same as DoW2 players) and their attempt to cater both spectacularly failed on both fronts, the game had absolutely nothing to do with CoH3 or vice versa.
15 Mar 2024, 15:24 PM
#5
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3143 | Subs: 2



But you would assume athat a newer Engine ist more flexible. Exactly for that reason to not have the same problems like older versions. So why it is so hard to implement something like a "give up" button with an newer Engine which should be aware of the features already existing


We can assume a lot of things but if you ask a software developer he will probably tell you about the evolution of a program from version to version, there's always changes, new things and older things that were left out, again due to one reason or another.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2024, 12:36 PMKatitof

If this was steam forum, you would be getting clown awards now.

So let do a tl;dr history lesson for you:

CoH1 was a game.
CoH2 was pretty much a mod to CoH1, reusing assets and code everywhere while stripping everything that made CoH1 belowed only to add it back later after their "casualization beam" failure.
CoH3 was made from scratch as new engine had to be written for it, so things were not hard coded as they were in previous games, therefore development time had to go into engine itself instead of using engine to build on, couple that with experienced developers and designers leaving and you have release CoH3. It got to where it should be with 1.4 and is mechanically superior to CoH1 and 2. What's missing now is QoL of low relevance, hence it is not in yet.

DoW3 was management of relic completely losing touch with playerbases of DoW (DoW1 players are not the same as DoW2 players) and their attempt to cater both spectacularly failed on both fronts, the game had absolutely nothing to do with CoH3 or vice versa.


And if you acted like this in real life you would have probably been buried 6 feet below ground until now.

I have been playing CoH since 2006 so I'm pretty aware of it's development history, plus I'm also a modder for it and have other software experience as well. There is a reason why CoH2 had remnants of the original CoH in it and CoH3 has left overs from CoH2 which are even being put to use unlike previously where they just existed in the files. And I also don't believe that you can back up any of your claims with proof.
15 Mar 2024, 16:37 PM
#6
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 284

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2024, 12:36 PMKatitof

DoW3 was management of relic completely losing touch with playerbases of DoW (DoW1 players are not the same as DoW2 players) and their attempt to cater both spectacularly failed on both fronts, the game had absolutely nothing to do with CoH3 or vice versa.


As laid out by Katitof, what little evidence we have suggests that Relic have been in a long slow death spiral for quite some time. They ruined the DoW series but managed to turn out a fairly decent, if unremarkable 'new' Age of Empires game that has probably helped keep them afloat.

Tiger is right of course in saying that none of us know the precise reason, we're all just speculating. But for my money it's probably down to a combination of management incompetence (I think they fired and replaced the main guy shortly after COH 3's launch), a much lower budget to develop the game with and the fact that a significant number of the people involved with the original have now moved on to better things.
15 Mar 2024, 20:05 PM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

And if you acted like this in real life you would have probably been buried 6 feet below ground until now.

I am acting like this IRL.
Being almost 2m tall and rather muscular gives me certain degree of impunity.

I have been playing CoH since 2006 so I'm pretty aware of it's development history, plus I'm also a modder for it and have other software experience as well. There is a reason why CoH2 had remnants of the original CoH in it and CoH3 has left overs from CoH2 which are even being put to use unlike previously where they just existed in the files. And I also don't believe that you can back up any of your claims with proof.

Why the ill informed post then?

CoH2 was made on slightly modified CoH1 engine, pulled animations from it etc. It literally was an expanded mod of CoH1 and CoHo was a test run for it.
CoH3, again, had to be made from scratch, because engine was made from scratch, you literally have dev interviews pre-launch explaining that. You should also be aware of why placeholder art assets are being used during development, but in case of CoH2, CoH1 assets were not placeholders, well, models were, but animations were just copied when applicable, for CoH3 they had to be redone, all of them.

Hell, CoH1 engine was so little modified for CoH2, you could still find DoW2 map assets there during earlier days.
15 Mar 2024, 22:48 PM
#8
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3143 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2024, 20:05 PMKatitof

I am acting like this IRL.
Being almost 2m tall and rather muscular gives me certain degree of impunity.


Why the ill informed post then?

CoH2 was made on slightly modified CoH1 engine, pulled animations from it etc. It literally was an expanded mod of CoH1 and CoHo was a test run for it.
CoH3, again, had to be made from scratch, because engine was made from scratch, you literally have dev interviews pre-launch explaining that. You should also be aware of why placeholder art assets are being used during development, but in case of CoH2, CoH1 assets were not placeholders, well, models were, but animations were just copied when applicable, for CoH3 they had to be redone, all of them.

Hell, CoH1 engine was so little modified for CoH2, you could still find DoW2 map assets there during earlier days.


Son, being big doesn't necessarily mean you'll intimidate everyone you meet.

There are people who fight for a living or carry weapons, do you think they won't be able to bring you down to your knees in a split second if needed?

I have done boxing and other martial arts and can say from personal experience, the biggest and loudest guy in the room isn't always the meanest, quite on the contrary I would say even.

So I suggest practice being more humble and less of an ass both on here and in real life and maybe you won't get your teeth kicked in some day by someone that you shouldn't have messed with.

As far as the rest of your post goes, I don't see what you're calling ill-informed exactly when you're stating the same thing as me basically but with more words.
16 Mar 2024, 13:53 PM
#9
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

This game is dead, recent battlegroups gave this corpse a few heartbeats and a small influx of online, but it's all coming back. Recently, my friend wrote to me that he freaked out and deleted CoH3. Due to the fact that the content in the game is minimal and the entire game is simply based on spam and blob, there is no combined arms game in the game. Graphics, Interface, Sounds, Music, Campaign, Maps: everything is more primitive and worse than even in CoH2, which was subjected to a lot of criticism. When discussing CoH3 with a friend, we came to the conclusion that it is more like CoH containing Starcraft than Company of Heroes.
18 Mar 2024, 03:45 AM
#10
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 328

Are my eyes working? Did I actually just read somebody attempting to brag about being almost 2 meters tall on a dying forum for a video game?

Dear lord :rofl:
19 Mar 2024, 19:45 PM
#11
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 218

Katitof is 151cm but he likes to round up!

Honestly though thank you for giving me a good laugh today, I do love seeing small penis syndrome on full public display.
21 Mar 2024, 09:36 AM
#12
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2024, 12:36 PMKatitof

.......

CoH1 was a game.
CoH2 was pretty much a mod to CoH1, reusing assets and code everywhere while stripping everything that made CoH1 belowed only to add it back later after their "casualization beam" failure.
CoH3 was made from scratch as new engine had to be written for it, so things were not hard coded as they were in previous games, therefore development time had to go into engine itself instead of using engine to build on, couple that with experienced developers and designers leaving and you have release CoH3. It got to where it should be with 1.4 and is mechanically superior to CoH1 and 2. What's missing now is QoL of low relevance, hence it is not in yet.

DoW3 was management of relic completely losing touch with playerbases of DoW (DoW1 players are not the same as DoW2 players) and their attempt to cater both spectacularly failed on both fronts, the game had absolutely nothing to do with CoH3 or vice versa.



As a casual player. are you able to conjecture why Relic even bothered to waste time making a new engine? I am grateful for your brief analysis as to how COH2 was created - so why not simply adapt COH2 to COH3 and cut out the time and expense of the new engine?

Second, it is evident that COH1 concentrated on 1v1 and LV play, while the introduction of the 'casualisation beam' in COH2 led to a concentration on team games with plenty of Armour and Arty, to the extent that by the end of Relic's active development of COH2, balancing was concentrated on team games.

The consequence of the first 3 COH iterations is that the 1v1 players from COH1 tended to look with disdain on COH2, while the team players from COH2 seem less than enamoured with COH3.

My other questions are:

  • You state that Relic failed to satisfy either group of DOW players. But it looks as if history may be repeating itself with COH3. Is it not possible with a new engine to apply different balancing and values to team games as opposed to 1v1? e.g. is it possible to create different BGs for team games only which could not be selected for 1v1?

  • Since developers presumably wish to maximise their income, would Relic have been wiser to concentrate on team games rather than 1v1?

  • Is the relatively crude COH3 UI indicative of the loss of ability and/or experience of those Relic Devs who departed the game pre-COH3?

Same questions to Tiger Baron

PS Let's lay off with the fisticuffs, please. :thumb:
21 Mar 2024, 10:25 AM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8




As a casual player. are you able to conjecture why Relic even bothered to waste time making a new engine? I am grateful for your brief analysis as to how COH2 was created - so why not simply adapt COH2 to COH3 and cut out the time and expense of the new engine?

That's actually extremely easy to answer:
CoH1 and as a result, CoH2 had too many things hard-coded, which resulted in certain mechanics being inflexible and impossible to change - primary example is front/rear armor of CoH2 and lack of side armor - a design choice that happened on engine level and could not be changed.

Main reason to make a new version of the engine was to get rid of hard-coded mechanics and allow flexibility to alterations if they prove to be in need of severe changes.

Second, it is evident that COH1 concentrated on 1v1 and LV play, while the introduction of the 'casualisation beam' in COH2 led to a concentration on team games with plenty of Armour and Arty, to the extent that by the end of Relic's active development of COH2, balancing was concentrated on team games.

That isn't what I meant by 'casualisation beam' there tho, it was not team game focus of coh2, it was early coh2 extreme simplification of the game, plain, uninspiring and shared by all vehicles and infantry cope+paste veterancy, linear weapon dps profiles, lack of damage tables(I would argue that was a good thing, but executed very poorly due to all of the remaining choices), stupidly overpowered health increases/damage reductions.
Early CoH2 in terms of gameplay and stats was very shallow compared to CoH1, it just did not had the depth until weapon profiles rework and veterancy revamp.


The consequence of the first 3 COH iterations is that the 1v1 players from COH1 tended to look with disdain on COH2, while the team players from COH2 seem less than enamoured with COH3.

My other questions are:

  • You state that Relic failed to satisfy either group of DOW players. But it looks as if history may be repeating itself with COH3. Is it not possible with a new engine to apply different balancing and values to team games as opposed to 1v1? e.g. is it possible to create different BGs for team games only which could not be selected for 1v1?

  • Since developers presumably wish to maximise their income, would Relic have been wiser to concentrate on team games rather than 1v1?

  • Is the relatively crude COH3 UI indicative of the loss of ability and/or experience of those Relic Devs who departed the game pre-COH3?

Same questions to Tiger Baron

PS Let's lay off with the fisticuffs, please. :thumb:

The big thing to notice here is that all 3 CoH games are, without any question, CoH games.
There are pace, TTK and where the game is reaching "golden point" of combat differences, but all are very clearly CoH games.

DoW on the other hand went from large squads and armies macro strategy to purely micro and hero oriented one in 2nd part.

3rd part attempted to merge previous 2 together and fell flat in the attempt - it was good RTS, but it was bad DoW from DoW1 players perspective, who wanted massive escalating battles with large customizable squads as well as from DoW2 players perspective who expected hero and squad preservation oriented gameplay with individual squad upgrades vs tech up gameplay.

It did had elements that made both DoW1 good and DoW2 good, but it got rid of all that made them distinct, which resulted in both playerbases rejecting the game.

No idea for dynamic balance changes, but no RTS ever did that and from design pov, its clear as to why - learning balance all over again just because game mode changes is very bad for the accessibility of the game.

What they should have done is what they did in DoW2, largest problem of CoH team games balance is the fact that contrary to 1s and 2s, map is very rarely contested, there is too many resource points in team games, which give regular values as in 1s and 2s.

Instead of trying to drive into a wall with dynamic balance, DoW2 solution of dynamic resources should be applied, where increased number of players in team games meant that there is indeed more resource points, but each of them provided LESS resources than corresponding one in smaller game mode while costing the same amount to build up.

Resource caches providing +1/2 instead of +3/5 in team games alone would massively improve the balance there, lowering regular fuel points values would go a long way too.

Fundamental problem with CoH series and team games was always imbalance in fuel abundance between game modes, not the balance itself.

You can pump out brummbar in 10 minutes or less in team games.
Good luck with that in 1s or 2s.

That to me is the crux of team game imbalance and as long as relic will refuse to accept resource inflation being main driving factor of imbalance between 1s and 2s and larger team games, there will never be balance there.

As for the UI, its not the easiest thing to design, but it is far from hardest, my experience is they aimed for simplicity and readability and as a result, some clarity going towards much smaller group of more experienced players was sacrificed, given how CoH3 is 1st CoH to land on consoles as well.
22 Mar 2024, 14:26 PM
#14
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1302

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2024, 10:25 AMKatitof

as long as relic will refuse to accept resource inflation being main driving factor of imbalance between 1s and 2s and larger team games, there will never be balance there.


Point of information;
Isn't the recent addition of a choice between call-ins and building from tech (for certain doctrinal units) indicative that they are attempting to address exactly what you're saying? Or at least that they're aware of this issue and trying different solutions for it?
22 Mar 2024, 20:44 PM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8



Point of information;
Isn't the recent addition of a choice between call-ins and building from tech (for certain doctrinal units) indicative that they are attempting to address exactly what you're saying? Or at least that they're aware of this issue and trying different solutions for it?

Not in the slightest.
Tech happening 50% faster in team games and much more heavy vehicle play due to never addressed abundance of fuel and stability of its income is the issue.

All the patch did was open up possibility to tech up and be rewarded for it if you go with bg armor and end up with advantage earlier.
22 Mar 2024, 21:08 PM
#16
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1

At the moment I don't see the need of reducing the resource outcome at least in 2vs2, I don't have the feeling that late game units are arriving that early and early/mid game LVs and units have their role and impact.

I'm not sure that would help 3vs3 or 4vs4, the problem isn't the resource but the concentration, we've seen that in those modes the side with the highest winrate is usually the one with the best indirect fire units. It has little to do with ressources.
There isn't such late game unit that win the game on their own like in coh2, or at least not until now that they buffed the Grant... which they could undo next patch.
22 Mar 2024, 21:11 PM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2024, 21:08 PMEsxile
At the moment I don't see the need of reducing the resource outcome at least in 2vs2, I don't have the feeling that late game units are arriving that early and early/mid game LVs and units have their role and impact.

I'm not sure that would help 3vs3 or 4vs4, the problem isn't the resource but the concentration, we've seen that in those modes the side with the highest winrate is usually the one with the best indirect fire units. It has little to do with ressources.
There isn't such late game unit that win the game on their own like in coh2, or at least not until now that they buffed the Grant... which they could undo next patch.

Because it is not a problem in 2s.

Its specifically issue of 3s and 4s, where stalemate happens early and points do not change ownership, on top of that you always have caches.

In 1s and 2s a lot of map is often contested and changing hands, leading to armor arriving at its intended time, you won't exactly find many 5 min Stuarts in 2s and 1s.
23 Mar 2024, 02:17 AM
#18
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2981 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Mar 2024, 10:25 AMKatitof

As for the UI, its not the easiest thing to design, but it is far from hardest, my experience is they aimed for simplicity and readability and as a result, some clarity going towards much smaller group of more experienced players was sacrificed, given how CoH3 is 1st CoH to land on consoles as well.


The battlefield-UI or how you wanna call it in CoH3 is one of the worst I have ever seen, a bunch of symbols floating above units, making the screen cluttered and 0 explanation as to what these buffs do

23 Mar 2024, 17:05 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8



The battlefield-UI or how you wanna call it in CoH3 is one of the worst I have ever seen, a bunch of symbols floating above units, making the screen cluttered and 0 explanation as to what these buffs do


Ah, that, yeah, I can see how that can be a problem, buffs could easily be moved elsewhere.
Debuffs however I'm not so sure.

You do need indicator that these are active, but yeah, it could be done much better, agreed here.

As DAK main I see these so often, I just phase them out of my sight.
23 Mar 2024, 18:18 PM
#20
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 328


and 0 explanation as to what these buffs do


That's how you know its a relic game :clap:

One of the bigger disappointments is in-game stats not being that much better than coh2s. They added some stuff (armor, HP, etc) but I wanted everything

Obvi dont want it displayed constantly, but just having the option of toggling more stats and descriptions would be nice
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