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Commander Overlap a serious problem

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30 Nov 2013, 02:01 AM
#141
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2013, 08:04 AMHux

I'm not arguing to go on a witchhunt to find who gave the green light on the tiger ace but what I am arguing is that a person from relic who has those creative authorities should be directly interacting with the community, at least once a month to do some research on what are the most pressing matters for the game.


Won't argue with that, its a good point. However, we don't know how much planning is going on before DLC's. For all we know, they are overthinking it. So in that reagard yes, it would be fun to have more interaction with the creative leads.

The more complicated people make this the less likely Relic will look into it. This thread is simply to gauge peoples interest in a new system along the lines of the one I laid out in post #1, which seems very very high. Thanks friends.


Occam's Razor all the way. We need an elegant solution to a complicated problem.
1 Dec 2013, 15:27 PM
#142
avatar of LeMazarin

Posts: 88

People are looking way too deep into this. The solution is very simple. Use the branching system I illustrated in page 1, and dont overlap any abilities with commanders. Its that simple, no customizing commanders, nothing fancy. Simplicity is important to making this possible.

Something simple, tactically deep (no overlap) and choice driven (choice tree) will be the elegant solution we are all looking for.

The more complicated people make this the less likely Relic will look into it. This thread is simply to gauge peoples interest in a new system along the lines of the one I laid out in post #1, which seems very very high. Thanks friends.


idea is very interesting, it would indeed bring COH2 interest much deeper allowing for more choices so more flexibility in the commander (and I dont think it would worsen the commanders balancewise) but I understand correctly ur suggesting to merge the commanders. If so, I think it might complicated to do so from since those were paid DLC

Id like to see you go further in the idea, eventho it might stay just theory, giving more examples as you did in the OP, to see with how many commanders you will end up with and which commanderes abilities you would find intersting to mix to create brand new commanders.
1 Dec 2013, 18:38 PM
#143
avatar of Joshua9

Posts: 93



idea is very interesting, it would indeed bring COH2 interest much deeper allowing for more choices so more flexibility in the commander (and I dont think it would worsen the commanders balancewise) but I understand correctly ur suggesting to merge the commanders. If so, I think it might complicated to do so from since those were paid DLC

Id like to see you go further in the idea, eventho it might stay just theory, giving more examples as you did in the OP, to see with how many commanders you will end up with and which commanderes abilities you would find intersting to mix to create brand new commanders.


I think there are enough abilities for 6 commanders for each faction(with a couple of stragglers), if the abilities were just taken and rearranged.

Its highly unlikely though, that 6 balanced commanders could be made that way. The suggestion is much more of an overhaul than that. And given the DLC model, it would also require the devs to flood enough unique abilities into the game to create new commanders so that they could offer up replacement dlc to people who bought the other commanders. Otherwise, there's just going to be hell of a lot of bad feelings unless relic waits a good year before it does something like this.

While I would have liked to see the designers apply no overlap from the start, and would also love to see ability trees(I particularly like whiteflash's partial tree suggestion) I don't know that I agree with its implementation at this point, UNLESS relic adds more upgrade content to each faction, which they definitely should do. Some abilities could definitely be added in a non-doctrinal way, like as Tommy suggested, ostheer vehicle smoke as a global fuel upgrade.

Unless relic adds this sort of content though, the ways to play are going to be greatly reduced, because currently its in the commanders how a player can tailor his style and unit composition, opening up or closing off certain builds, depending on what the doctrine choice offers.






9 Dec 2013, 21:16 PM
#145
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1567 | Subs: 2

Very good post but I believe that some overlap is warranted given that each commander appears to fill a specific role.
10 Dec 2013, 02:56 AM
#146
avatar of JStorm
Benefactor 360

Posts: 93

The more overlap the better in my opinion. Only way to get that customized commander. ;)
22 Dec 2013, 15:51 PM
#147
avatar of SwissCheese

Posts: 42

I could not agree more. Frankly, I am trying to love COH2, but VCOH is a far better game. I think there is also more player in VCOH than COH2 at this time. And for the fun factor, COHO was the best of all. It's a shame that it got canned. All they would have had to do was to change the economic model, and stopped listening to the 1 VS 1 player only. Coop with friends in PVP is fun. Period.

Getting customizable commanders now would help, but it would not save the game : territory less important, pop cap not so much related, you can get resources of all types with a OP, no dynamic doctrines and skill tree, and so on ... But they started updating VCOH again, that is a good news. Quite frankly, I would be happy to buy (again!) VCOH redone with the new engine and true sight. I don't need a COH2 that is starting to feel like a StarCraft spam and rush. They somehow have done the same thing with the Dawn of War franchise. First one, made by the original team, was a much better game than the simplified iterations that came after.
24 Dec 2013, 18:53 PM
#148
avatar of TheSoulTrain

Posts: 150

Why not use vCoH's system and we are done here.

Oh wait relic are greedy bastards, fuck your pay to win crap, stay dead shit game.
27 Dec 2013, 03:27 AM
#149
avatar of ardenx

Posts: 19

Why not use vCoH's system and we are done here.

Oh wait relic are greedy bastards, fuck your pay to win crap, stay dead shit game.


Aww, how about some cold kreme for ur buttmad? Stay frosty, padawan.

Anyhoo, I welcome my next set of commanders, and any other DLC they've got lined up for 2014 for that matter. I admit when I first started playing the beta and then learned of the DLC commanders coming I was like "why" but once the game came out and I started getting into the nuances of the individual commanders more, no they're not P2W like the "all DLC is a scam and should be included in the base game forever" whiners insist, they're simply a different way of playing the game, they're fun little diversions, and admittedly I now own most of them, along with all the ToW DLC's, and have not regretted these purchases because I've gotten my money's worth so far. Once new COH2 DLC's stop delivering and stop giving me my money's worth I'll stop buying.

ANd remember kids, optional content is optional.
30 Dec 2013, 01:38 AM
#150
avatar of Pred

Posts: 35

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Dec 2013, 03:27 AMardenx


Aww, how about some cold kreme for ur buttmad? Stay frosty, padawan.

Anyhoo, I welcome my next set of commanders, and any other DLC they've got lined up for 2014 for that matter. I admit when I first started playing the beta and then learned of the DLC commanders coming I was like "why" but once the game came out and I started getting into the nuances of the individual commanders more, no they're not P2W like the "all DLC is a scam and should be included in the base game forever" whiners insist, they're simply a different way of playing the game, they're fun little diversions, and admittedly I now own most of them, along with all the ToW DLC's, and have not regretted these purchases because I've gotten my money's worth so far. Once new COH2 DLC's stop delivering and stop giving me my money's worth I'll stop buying.

ANd remember kids, optional content is optional.


First of all it isn't optional since you have no influence on wether or not your opponent bought commanders. Selling co-op and single player dlcs is no problem at all. Selling stuff that gives players an advantage in a 1v1 is wrong. The entire design of a game revolving around a dlc system is not good for gameplay and balance at all.

By stating that you "got your money's worth" you pretty much admitt to buying an advantage. Commanders were and still are unbalanced, they just get pumped out to milk the customers without game balance in mind. A month or so later they get adjusted/overruled by even stroner ones.

Just to be clear: I have 0 problems with skins and co, but as soon as dlc content can only be earned by paying with real money things become p2w all too easy. If you manage to just give people "different" things, np but honestly pushing shit such as windustry, comeback ace, and all the other initially op commanders out there aggrevates me.

A lot of games have shown that fewer but better designed and balanced units make for a better game with a lot more longevity. The commander overlap just adds to the already existing clutter. The prime example for doing it right is Corld in Conflict imo.

I really hope that changes will be made to the commander system but considering that relic can't make 3.99 every other month off of it i highly doubt it's going to happen.
10 Jan 2014, 13:05 PM
#151
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1790 | Subs: 1

Interesting idea, specially with f2p german commanders. I think they need a rework. most soviet commanders have early-game off-map units which can change the course of game.
With the system you are suggesting this problem could be solved.
25 Jan 2014, 01:43 AM
#152
avatar of Joliet Jake

Posts: 2

Commander Overlap

First off, the last big patch was good overall, and props to who worked hard on that, its clear the new commanders have less overlap then the old ones.

Secondly, restructuring the commanders is completely doable and restructuring the commanders now is easier to do then when Relic was first putting them together thats for sure, given that we understand how each ability actually works in the game and there is a wider testing area for implementation.

Given those facts if Relic doesn't want to restructure the commanders to have tactical depth, unique abilities and a feeling that commanders are a big deal (not a side show) in every game, then Relic is either lazy or greedy.

I want to make a specific point when I say Relic I don't mean the people at the ground level doing the work, testing and creating. Rather, I'm pointing at whoever are the decision makers at the top who decided it was okay to overlap abilities, some up to five times. The people at the top need to get a grip on this and understand this is a serious problem, and more importantly, that it can and should be fixed.

Having said that, The new commanders (as you will see) have less overlap and its clear Relic understands my point to a certain level. But the overlap continues and the old commanders absolutely need to be overhauled in order for them to actually feel like commanders.

Take a look at the amount of overlap. Colors represent #of times that an ability overlaps with another commander.

Germans
Bigger Picture

Bigger Picture


Soviets
Bigger Picture

Bigger Picture



Instead of having commanders unlock in a strait line, which is boring and tactically shallow, the choice system should be implemented as follows (just an example of what the choice setup is, not an actual commander)

25 Jan 2014, 02:08 AM
#153
avatar of Joliet Jake

Posts: 2

I agree, what your talking about with the command tree is how the 1st coh was laid out, you picked which upgrade you wanted from the level you were at-when you had all the upgrades from level 1 then you moved to 2 and so on. . I would like to take this a step further and have a commander that you set up with items you want, you have categories for each line from which to choose. A fully customizable doctrine . But this would mean that sega could no longer sell you commanders. I also believe that Relic is a mess-they were on the brink of going out of business and lost its good people, as a result there are several problems with game play with several of the coh2 maps that do not work in co-op mode-they crash with sync-errors. that tells me the game was rushed out without fully testing all of the game modes. look at the latest patch for COH 1 put out in December-it crashed that game to the point were it won't play and relic so far has not done anything about it, I paid for this game, I want it to work as intended. lets hope that someone at sega/relic listens and acts.
3 Apr 2014, 19:19 PM
#154
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1102 | Subs: 1

I believe Relic is more than capable of doing this its the elegant solution we've all been looking for. There are ways to satisfy people who have already purchased commanders, that wouldn't stop this idea from moving forward.

It would be worth it for us, it would be worth it for them.

I don't mind seeing new factions, but not at the cost of the commander system staying the way it is.
3 Apr 2014, 19:30 PM
#155
avatar of 50CALBarrett

Posts: 10

I believe Relic is more than capable of doing this its the elegant solution we've all been looking for. There are ways to satisfy people who have already purchased commanders, that wouldn't stop this idea from moving forward.

It would be worth it for us, it would be worth it for them.

I don't mind seeing new factions, but not at the cost of the commander system staying the way it is.


I agree with this
3 Apr 2014, 19:30 PM
#156
avatar of Affe

Posts: 578

I believe Relic is more than capable of doing this its the elegant solution we've all been looking for. There are ways to satisfy people who have already purchased commanders, that wouldn't stop this idea from moving forward.

It would be worth it for us, it would be worth it for them.

I don't mind seeing new factions, but not at the cost of the commander system staying the way it is.


Relic already said that they won t Change the stupid commander System.They are not interested in giving the People what they want.
3 Apr 2014, 19:36 PM
#157
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 22

The problem imo is the guy in charge of commanders: Stefan Haines.
This guy seems to work solo, ignores other people's feedback, and hates the idea of changing his "beautiful system". I've never seen him once visit this site, so I take it he opposes constructive criticism of any kind.
3 Apr 2014, 20:40 PM
#158
avatar of Zupadupadude

Posts: 617

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2014, 19:30 PMAffe


Relic already said that they won t Change the stupid commander System.They are not interested in giving the People what they want.


Lmao, they gave people what they wanted with the March Deployment, namely: less RNG, more vCOH style combat and a mid-game (or at least it was an attempt to create a mid-game).

I think the commanders are fine like this. Some have a bit too much overlap (Anti-Inf Tactics and Terror Tactics) but IMO all the other ones are fine and mix it up enough to be different.
3 Apr 2014, 22:21 PM
#159
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4494

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Apr 2014, 19:30 PMAffe
Relic already said that they won t Change the stupid commander System.They are not interested in giving the People what they want.


Yeah everyone knows Relic HQ sits atop a large stone outcrop surrounded by cliffs where it is perpetually dark, with thunder and lightening whenever you look at it. The people inside only want to ruin a game they spent years creating, because that'll get them profit somehow. It's just like republicans! In fact, I bet they secretly work together...

3 Apr 2014, 22:42 PM
#160
avatar of Robotnik

Posts: 38

This is one thread I would like to see a reply from Relic in

This is such a good idea and I really hope Relic considers it
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