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Pathfinders are anal cancer

27 Jun 2022, 10:32 AM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

Pathfinders should have been brought up to JLI offensive (accuracy....) and defensive (RA) levels and made CP2.

Pathfinder where CP2 and did not work because there was little room for one to get them.

In addition JLI are CP 1 not CP 2, require tech and mu to upgrade and are much more expensive.



Start off with long range carbines or something and upgrade to snipers, same as JLI.
However, then pios should get the sight bonus locked behind vet so that no starting infantry can scout out right out of the gate (especially potent in 3v3s).
Scott should have had 60 autofire range and a high scatter, fast barrage that can act as sort of a retarded katyusha barrage. Slower, not as high a saturation as many rockets at once, but you get autofire in return.
Basically a mini brummbar.
Pak howi should have had an autofire accuracy nerf, and a buff to barrage so it's more against static opponents. Not just straight up nerf the AOE by 50% and in return give it one extra man which does not help it survive one bit.
M1919s should have been locked behind the major so that rifles don't lose as hard against grens late game on most large, open maps. Grens should have been reworked because they are currently the most potent mainline, especially in 3v3s+ where you can blob them with LMGs and just melt away infantry (especially USF as USF is close range).
OKW should have been looked at with the KT spearhead + commander/HEAT shells combination. HEAT shells themselves should have been reworked.

There are plenty of things that could have been made better in my opinion. But with the current state of the US, pathfinders are necessitated by facts:
Grens are long range, combined with pios sight + MG42 wide cone, makes it a horror to play against on lane-y maps (Rheine, Redball, ...)
Volks are long range, and you want to spot rushing spios to position the REs as perfectly as you can since REs deal 0 dmg in reality.
OST also has a sniper which can be a cancer to USF. Can't remember how many times I've flanked a sniper only to fail to kill it in multiple volleys from medium-long range (rifles are close range).

Biggest weakness, once that I've seen exploited many times in 3v3s by fellow USF players that played Airborne into scott is the absolute lack of AT/snare. M1 57mm is generally not enough to contest OKW P4 without a muni sink (which goes into pathfinders to make them viable later on with double BARs). With the caches and all, you can get the OKW P4 and a brummbar quite fast, which spells doom against pathfinders/scott. (unless all OKW team)
Best you can hope is to close the game before minute 15.

Hell, I pretty much exclusively play Heavy Cavalry and I'm around rank 10 as USF in 3v3s, which kinda does mean that Pathfinders are not as necessary as they seem to be at first glance. But they do make the game easier. What I have to do basically is send the RE first to get pinned and reveal the position of the MG, and then play 3 rifles vs 3 grens + MG42 + pio with superior positioning and micro. After those starting engagements against spios and MG42s it gets easier and I usually have the Pershing around minute 19-20. Still, having pathfinder sight makes it sooo much easier. Sure the pathfinders are quite shi* in combat until BARs, but the starting sight more than makes up for it.

Little is really relevant to Pathfinders which is the topic of this thread.

And what is relevant is not very accurate for instance Pathfinders are not "quite shi* in combat".
27 Jun 2022, 11:00 AM
#22
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



delete UKF and OKW along the way. game fixed.


okw no delete, is good.

ukf no one give shit
27 Jun 2022, 11:01 AM
#23
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 01:10 AMKatukov
pathfinders were god's punishment for spotting scope and sturmtiger abuse


it's god's punishment for people still playing a decades old semi-dead game
27 Jun 2022, 11:03 AM
#24
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

Nobody thinks that having two infantry units in one commander is a very bad design? Maybe move the Pathfinders somewhere to another commander? And maybe add the Paratroopers to another commander?


The original "design" vision was that pathfinders as their name suggests would drop once and then using their beacon would "prepare" the ground for airborne squads to roll in. That's why beacon is free and gives accurate and faster drop zone for airborne plus free reinforce. That's serious buffs...

But people just wanna spam.
27 Jun 2022, 11:13 AM
#25
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2



The original "design" vision was that pathfinders as their name suggests would drop once and then using their beacon would "prepare" the ground for airborne squads to roll in. That's why beacon is free and gives accurate and faster drop zone for airborne plus free reinforce. That's serious buffs...

But people just wanna spam.


Well, it's a shitty design anyway. The original idea could have been implemented in a different way - the Rear Echilon could build beacons for the Paratroopers. I think a couple to divide these units into different commanders.
27 Jun 2022, 12:10 PM
#26
avatar of merlin

Posts: 13

Dear Axis one-trick heroes,

for years it was apparently totally fine that your spotting scope 222 can see my ambulance in base from the middle of the map. And that the scopes were in an overpowered elefant doctrine to boot.

I am very sorry that you encounter some annoying opposition now against your gren blobs and scopes cancer, instead of farming easy wins against riflemen :(

Whenever a USF player asked "how do we counter the sniper? The blobs and MG? What do we do against the spotting scopes and elefant?" the answer was always the same: "Dont really care to be honest, go figure it out yourself"

So yeah please sit the fck down and shut the hell up over having to play against pathfinders for the last couple of months before coh3 comes out.
27 Jun 2022, 12:29 PM
#27
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3111 | Subs: 2

Nobody thinks that having two infantry units in one commander is a very bad design? Maybe move the Pathfinders somewhere to another commander? And maybe add the Paratroopers to another commander?

The whole commander design does not really work. No one will do frontline drops with the team weapons because it is way too risky.
Having two infantry units is okay overall I would say. Some other commanders work like this as well. What I don't like it is that none of these units really replace another unit in your normal build.

Other factions do it better:
- Soviet Shock army: 120mm functionally replaces the normal mortar, Shock troops are bonus for flexibility
- Guard Motor: Same thing, just with Guards
- Defensive tactics: Basically completely replaces T2
- Lend lease: DshK replaces Maxim, Guards are bonus
- Osttruppen Doctrine: Osttruppen replace Grens, Artillery officer is bonus
- Mobile assault regiment: Two units replace stock units, third one is new


Plus, there is this intention with beacons to make them work together, but it is more of a gimmick than a proper feature.
Combine this with USFs fairly rigid infantry build order, and the fact that you'll get officer squads regardless if you want them or not, you'll overload yourself with infantry.
Neither Paths nor Paras are "classical" mainlines, they don't replace other units, you're supposed to get both of them, and you're supposed to still get Rifles and officers. It's just a bit too much.
27 Jun 2022, 13:57 PM
#28
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Paths aren't a cause but a consequence of modding team's lack of vision (pun intended) on balance. And it started long before path buff. Now it is just about to sit and wait for coh3 and hope those pesky modders aren't involved in coh3 gameplay design 😅
27 Jun 2022, 14:05 PM
#29
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 12:10 PMmerlin
Dear Axis one-trick heroes,

for years it was apparently totally fine that your spotting scope 222 can see my ambulance in base from the middle of the map. And that the scopes were in an overpowered elefant doctrine to boot.

I am very sorry that you encounter some annoying opposition now against your gren blobs and scopes cancer, instead of farming easy wins against riflemen :(

Whenever a USF player asked "how do we counter the sniper? The blobs and MG? What do we do against the spotting scopes and elefant?" the answer was always the same: "Dont really care to be honest, go figure it out yourself"

So yeah please sit the fck down and shut the hell up over having to play against pathfinders for the last couple of months before coh3 comes out.


Don't really care to be honest, go figure it out yourself.
27 Jun 2022, 14:07 PM
#30
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 13:57 PMEsxile
Paths aren't a cause but a consequence of modding team's lack of vision (pun intended) on balance. And it started long before path buff. Now it is just about to sit and wait for coh3 and hope those pesky modders aren't involved in coh3 gameplay design 😅


I have been preaching this for literal years. Stop putting design decisions that require VISION on the hands of a few good players/modders.
27 Jun 2022, 14:53 PM
#31
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658


The whole commander design does not really work. No one will do frontline drops with the team weapons because it is way too risky.
Having two infantry units is okay overall I would say. Some other commanders work like this as well. What I don't like it is that none of these units really replace another unit in your normal build.

Other factions do it better:
- Soviet Shock army: 120mm functionally replaces the normal mortar, Shock troops are bonus for flexibility
- Guard Motor: Same thing, just with Guards
- Defensive tactics: Basically completely replaces T2
- Lend lease: DshK replaces Maxim, Guards are bonus
- Osttruppen Doctrine: Osttruppen replace Grens, Artillery officer is bonus
- Mobile assault regiment: Two units replace stock units, third one is new


Plus, there is this intention with beacons to make them work together, but it is more of a gimmick than a proper feature.
Combine this with USFs fairly rigid infantry build order, and the fact that you'll get officer squads regardless if you want them or not, you'll overload yourself with infantry.
Neither Paths nor Paras are "classical" mainlines, they don't replace other units, you're supposed to get both of them, and you're supposed to still get Rifles and officers. It's just a bit too much.


Most of USF/UKF in general is poorly designed, just look at Pathfinders and IR Pathfinders, two units that were essentially copy and pasted and tweaked slightly just to be a filler instead of creating/designing something unique.

I personally have no issue destroying USF with Pathfinder spam when I play axis but when I see the same shit every game it gets old real quick.

Pathfinders in real life were used as an advance unit that would set the way for other airborne units and thematically that is very easy to implement.

Limit Pathfinders to 1
Allow them to place Beacons on the map, Beacons can drop/call in 4/5 man Paratrooper squads (think USF Panzerfusilier but requiring a beacon) and they would scale later on to current paratrooper strength and you will have something that not only fits the theme but is much better balanced.
27 Jun 2022, 15:14 PM
#32
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3111 | Subs: 2

Most of USF/UKF in general is poorly designed, just look at Pathfinders and IR Pathfinders, two units that were essentially copy and pasted and tweaked slightly just to be a filler instead of creating/designing something unique.

I personally have no issue destroying USF with Pathfinder spam when I play axis but when I see the same shit every game it gets old real quick.

Pathfinders in real life were used as an advance unit that would set the way for other airborne units and thematically that is very easy to implement.

Limit Pathfinders to 1
Allow them to place Beacons on the map, Beacons can drop/call in 4/5 man Paratrooper squads (think USF Panzerfusilier but requiring a beacon) and they would scale later on to current paratrooper strength and you will have something that not only fits the theme but is much better balanced.

Yes, I completely agree.
The current state of USF pathfinders, especially in airborne, is sad. Not because they were weak, but because it leads to boring games.
27 Jun 2022, 15:39 PM
#33
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658


Yes, I completely agree.
The current state of USF pathfinders, especially in airborne, is sad. Not because they were weak, but because it leads to boring games.






This is how Airborne should be.


Pathfinders limited to 1

MG/AT-gun Paradrop moved to Reinforcement Beacon







At 0 CP Pathfinders can call in weaker Paratroopers, at 3 CP they are upgraded into current Paratroopers (Panzerfusiliers basically) Start off weak/on par with main infantry but scale better later on




27 Jun 2022, 17:53 PM
#34
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808







This is how Airborne should be.


Pathfinders limited to 1

MG/AT-gun Paradrop moved to Reinforcement Beacon







At 0 CP Pathfinders can call in weaker Paratroopers, at 3 CP they are upgraded into current Paratroopers (Panzerfusiliers basically) Start off weak/on par with main infantry but scale better later on






Paratroopers need to come earlier then CP 3 to fit in USF builds, especially if there going to be weaker like pfussies at the start. Though this a nice idea
EDIT just noticed you meant they can come t0 thats fine. but why the mg and at gun coming earlier? i think thats too early imo
3 Jul 2022, 06:13 AM
#35
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62

So is the MG42, what's your point?
3 Jul 2022, 10:16 AM
#36
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1094

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 17:53 PMAlphrum

EDIT just noticed you meant they can come t0 thats fine. but why the mg and at gun coming earlier? i think thats too early imo



It's going to blow your mind when I tell you about the MG42/vickers in T0 available at 0:01
3 Jul 2022, 12:22 PM
#37
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Sure, make them droppable only in base sector and not literally anywhere you need it, avoiding build and getting it to the frontline delay, later to be picked up immediately and be reinforced by earliest in the game forward reinforcement unit. Then it wont be a problem that available early.
4 Jul 2022, 10:08 AM
#38
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

The weird thing for me about Pathfinders is how they're spammable combat units which is not what they're supposed to be. If they only had 1 weapon slot and vetted up slower they would be a far less cheesy blob unit, rather than forcing it via unit cap limits.
4 Jul 2022, 10:11 AM
#39
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3111 | Subs: 2

I think the problem with airborne is that it is absolutely meant for forward reinforcement and setting up forward bases. Yet, this costs a ton of micro management in a micro heavy faction.
Forward bases are also heavily map dependent and rather make sense in larger modes until you just get shelled by artillery constantly.

I usually call the droppable weapons into the base. They are safe there, I can instantly reinforce the missing fourth guy. The abilities can't be used reactively anyway due to the long delay until you can pick them up, plus without a forward reinforcement point, you'll walk them back to base rather sooner than later anyway.


Not really worth fixing, but I think pathfinders would really be better off with the JLI treatment. Making them more capable combat units, but they need an upgrade and they come at CP1. They just need to be worth waiting for the first ~3-4 minutes until you get to CP1, which is slightly difficult to do in the USF build order.
4 Jul 2022, 10:28 AM
#40
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

I personally think it's nice being able to get 0cp Pathfinders. USF early game is so boring as they're the only faction with no options and diversity other than going 3x Riflemen every game. The issue is the Pathfinder spammability.
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