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russian armor

76mm Sherman and M4C's AP shell needs a small buff I think

1 Apr 2022, 10:34 AM
#21
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 776 | Subs: 1

The biggest problem I see with Lend-Lease Commander is the lack of an Artillery or Air ability on the map. You have a truck that increases resources, but you have nowhere to spend your ammo. You can overlay the entire map with mines and you will have a ton of wasted ammo.



true, an average sov wont even realize how much he's banking up in terms of munitions. on the brighter side, you CAN burn through it all with Zis barrage, satchels, the M4C smoke, and mines
1 Apr 2022, 10:35 AM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1

Panzer IV H costs 350 MP 120 FU

Panzer IV J costs 380 MP 140 FU

Sherman 76mm costs 380 MP 125 FU

For 5 more fuel and 30 manpower it will beat the PzIV H and for 15 fuel less it will have a fighting chance vs PzIV J. (about even in static fight win easily if moving)

That is simply not a trash unit or even a overnerfed unit.

The unit is cost efficient.
MMX
1 Apr 2022, 10:39 AM
#23
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

I'm not sure what the exact justificaton for the 76mm nerf was, outside of nerfing Mechanized in general, but I haven't been a fan of it, either. If AT is where the 76mm Sherman was deemed too effective, a pen reduction for the regular shell would have been a better choice IMHO. Right now the tank is only marginally better than a regular AP-Sherman in terms of AI, while the HVAP rounds combined with its standard armor and 640 HP aren't really offering enough AT-wise to offset this.

That doesn't mean it's a bad tank per se, but having to pick a doctrine that isn't too spectacular otherwise makes the 76mm a pretty tough sell.
1 Apr 2022, 10:48 AM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 10:39 AMMMX
I'm not sure what the exact justificaton for the 76mm nerf was, outside of nerfing Mechanized in general, but I haven't been a fan of it, either. If AT is where the 76mm Sherman was deemed too effective, a pen reduction for the regular shell would have been a better choice IMHO. Right now the tank is only marginally better than a regular AP-Sherman in terms of AI, while the HVAP rounds combined with its standard armor and 640 HP aren't really offering enough AT-wise to offset this.

That doesn't mean it's a bad tank per se, but having to pick a doctrine that isn't too spectacular otherwise makes the 76mm a pretty tough sell.

The justification was that is had an unusually high ROF compared to other vehicles of it class while being able to get even higher ROF by vet bonus and abilities.

The unit was firing faster than a STUG.
1 Apr 2022, 11:15 AM
#25
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 10:39 AMMMX
I'm not sure what the exact justificaton for the 76mm nerf was, outside of nerfing Mechanized in general, but I haven't been a fan of it, either. If AT is where the 76mm Sherman was deemed too effective, a pen reduction for the regular shell would have been a better choice IMHO. Right now the tank is only marginally better than a regular AP-Sherman in terms of AI, while the HVAP rounds combined with its standard armor and 640 HP aren't really offering enough AT-wise to offset this.

That doesn't mean it's a bad tank per se, but having to pick a doctrine that isn't too spectacular otherwise makes the 76mm a pretty tough sell.


The tank was more than fine. BT just wanted to nerf Mechanized into the ground so they nerfed everything in it except Cav Rifles.
1 Apr 2022, 11:29 AM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1



The tank was more than fine. BT just wanted to nerf Mechanized into the ground so they nerfed everything in it except Cav Rifles.

The decision to nerf mechanized was correct the same way the decision to nerf Ostruppen was correct and that had nothing to do with any conspiracy but with the fact that the mechanized vs Ostruppen much up become boring.
(weather the commanders have been overnerf or lack utility is another story or are badly designed)

All that is rather irrelevant to the 76mm though.
1 Apr 2022, 12:03 PM
#27
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 85

> OverNerf WC 51.
> Rework combine arm (which is effect 2 doctrine as same time) become a complitcated ability so nobody bother to click it anyway.
> Overnerf M4 76/M4 Bulldozer for no reason. But hey, they give Weh a Okw Pz4 :D.
Bring M36 into table dont change a fact that M4 76mm is overnerf.



NO CHANGE????
Armor 130/60 to 110/60 so now 125~110 pen PZ4 can penetrate jackson 100% at all range
Fuel 140 to 145
V3 Pen bonus 30% reduced to 20% so min pen at V3 is 286 to 264 now(Also SU-85), it means USF's RNG benefit is removed but only German RNG benefit is given. even before those nerfs not the line of panther even StuG and JP4 had 100% Penetrated USF all Vanilla tanks at all range. But V3 Pen bonus nerf now cut Panther Penetration Clearing. Now V2 Skirted Panther have 286/99 Armor. so Relic Patch team always Removes Allies' believable little hills. but giving Germans easier to kick away. yeah. Caliope too. it also lost its frontal armor and now it's 110/80.
1 Apr 2022, 12:18 PM
#28
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 11:29 AMVipper

The decision to nerf mechanized was correct the same way the decision to nerf Ostruppen was correct and that had nothing to do with any conspiracy but with the fact that the mechanized vs Ostruppen much up become boring.
(weather the commanders have been overnerf or lack utility is another story or are badly designed)

All that is rather irrelevant to the 76mm though.



Mate you’re a level 14 2v2 player, don’t act like you understand faction and commander power levels enough to evaluate unit changes.

I was top 10 USF and I’ve played Mechanized before and after the nerfs and I can tell you it got overnerfed.

The 76mm was an excellent unit that only got nerfed due to Combined Arms synergy and commander power level so now it’s an underpowered unit that’s a poor choice compared to dozer M4s or Ez8s. I would revert the rof nerf on the spot and nerf combined arms instead while giving Mechanized back dozer 75mm.
1 Apr 2022, 12:24 PM
#29
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 839



NO CHANGE????
Armor 130/60 to 110/60 so now 125~110 pen PZ4 can penetrate jackson 100% at all range
Fuel 140 to 145
V3 Pen bonus 30% reduced to 20% so min pen at V3 is 286 to 264 now(Also SU-85), it means USF's RNG benefit is removed but only German RNG benefit is given. even before those nerfs not the line of panther even StuG and JP4 had 100% Penetrated USF all Vanilla tanks at all range. But V3 Pen bonus nerf now cut Panther Penetration Clearing. Now V2 Skirted Panther have 286/99 Armor. so Relic Patch team always Removes Allies' believable little hills. but giving Germans easier to kick away. yeah. Caliope too. it also lost its frontal armor and now it's 110/80.


It might have been difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure what he meant to say with the last sentence is: "Bring[ing the] M36 [onto the] table do[esn't] change [the] fact that M4 76mm is overnerf[ed]."
1 Apr 2022, 13:17 PM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

Modding team overnerfing USF stuff they personally don't like? who would have imagine this.
1 Apr 2022, 13:23 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1



Mate you’re a level 14 2v2 player, don’t act like you understand faction and commander power levels enough to evaluate unit changes.

Mate you believed that the autoattack of brumbar had a faster projectile than the attack ground one. I guess you rank did not help you understand game mechanics any better.


I was top 10 USF and I’ve played Mechanized before and after the nerfs and I can tell you it got overnerfed.

And I have not claimed either wise, my point was that it was not part of conspiracy where "they just wanted to nerf Mechanized into the ground" and pointed out that similar change where made to osttruppen.

The nerfing both commanders was a step in the right direction since they where dominating the meta regardless if they messed up in execution both commanders where overnerfed or not.


The 76mm was an excellent unit that only got nerfed due to Combined Arms synergy and commander power level so now it’s an underpowered unit that’s a poor choice compared to dozer M4s or Ez8s.

The 76mm was an OP unit that at VET 3 had a ROF of 3.26 much higher than other tank of its class and even higher than TDs and that was without radio net or combined arms.

As I posted in post 22 the unit is cost efficient and any issues are not related to being "trash"

I would revert the rof nerf on the spot and nerf combined arms instead while giving Mechanized back dozer 75mm.

1 Apr 2022, 13:26 PM
#32
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 13:23 PMVipper


zzzzzzzzz



I respectfully disagree.
1 Apr 2022, 13:27 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1



I respectfully disagree.

And I respectfully accept you disagreement.
MMX
1 Apr 2022, 15:43 PM
#34
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 10:48 AMVipper

The justification was that is had an unusually high ROF compared to other vehicles of it class while being able to get even higher ROF by vet bonus and abilities.

The unit was firing faster than a STUG.


Well, obviously, but I guess we both know that ROF is only one out of many parameters defining a unit's performance. And I assume you'd also agree that reducing ROF just because a unit supposedly fires too fast would be pretty pointless, unless you'd want to A) nerf the unit alltogether or B) give it something in return to keep its performance the same.
Now the latter obviously didn't happen, which is quite disappointing. It's still a good tank nonetheless, especially in Lendlease, but there are better options to pick in the USF roster.



The tank was more than fine. BT just wanted to nerf Mechanized into the ground so they nerfed everything in it except Cav Rifles.


Maybe so, wouldn't be the first commander that stood out from the rest and subsequently got pruned a tad bit too much in response. I think Mechanized would've been fine even without the 76mm nerf, but that might not have been enough to instantly change the tournament meta.
1 Apr 2022, 16:06 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 15:43 PMMMX


Well, obviously, but I guess we both know that ROF is only one out of many parameters defining a unit's performance. And I assume you'd also agree that reducing ROF just because a unit supposedly fires too fast would be pretty pointless, unless you'd want to A) nerf the unit alltogether or B) give it something in return to keep its performance the same.
Now the latter obviously didn't happen, which is quite disappointing. It's still a good tank nonetheless, especially in Lendlease, but there are better options to pick in the USF roster.


A) The unit was OP
B) The unit had abnormally base high ROF
C) The unit had abnormally high veterancy bonuses

76mm Sherman started as Soviet unit that had T-34 vet bonuses that where higher than USF Sherman's bonus.

In addition it had no access to radio network or combined arms at the time.

Then it become available to both factions whiled buffed and enjoyed the best of both world.
That was a mistake since the unit should be separately balance for Soviets and USF.

As a result it become OP and had to be nerfed (and it can still beat PzIVs cost efficiently.)

The ROF was an obvious issue so they started from there (when they should had probably redesign the two units separately). If there issue an with the unit that role/place and not its performance which is simply not trash as some people claim.
1 Apr 2022, 18:14 PM
#36
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1852 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Apr 2022, 16:06 PMVipper


(and it can still beat PzIVs cost efficiently.)

The ROF was an obvious issue so they started from there (when they should had probably redesign the two units separately).


I think these are fair enough points but I still think OP's original point stands. (At this point it's pretty pie in the sky to think a unit rework will happen). "Medium Tank that's slightly better than stock M4A3 at beating P4s" just isn't a strong selling point.

Pre-nerf Mechanized was mostly used for Dodge Truck pressure and Dozer Shermans as far as I can remember. Meanwhile the ROF was the only real thing that made the 76MM somewhat attractive since it made up for the lack of HE shells when you weren't using HVAP (do people even use the HVAP on 76MM?). 76MM needs some semblance of AI perks otherwise you might as well get a Jackson if you want to tame P4s. This is even more true now that Mechanized's power level was nerfed pretty hard is other areas.

TL/DR I don't think a slight buff to 76MM's standard shell will put it over the top given how the rest of Mechanized was nerfed if it's going to be one of the main reasons you pick the doctrine.
1 Apr 2022, 23:59 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13351 | Subs: 1



I think these are fair enough points but I still think OP's original point stands. (At this point it's pretty pie in the sky to think a unit rework will happen). "Medium Tank that's slightly better than stock M4A3 at beating P4s" just isn't a strong selling point.

It is not a strong selling point for the USF but I was responding to claims that the unit is trash and as I pointed the issue is the role of the unit and not with its performance/cost efficiency.


Pre-nerf Mechanized was mostly used for Dodge Truck pressure and Dozer Shermans as far as I can remember. Meanwhile the ROF was the only real thing that made the 76MM somewhat attractive since it made up for the lack of HE shells when you weren't using HVAP (do people even use the HVAP on 76MM?). 76MM needs some semblance of AI perks otherwise you might as well get a Jackson if you want to tame P4s. This is even more true now that Mechanized's power level was nerfed pretty hard is other areas.

According to MMX tool in a static slug fest

76mm has 60.5% chance to beat a PzIV at rage 40 and 78.6% chance to beat with using HVAP
and
76mm has 33.6% chance to beat a PzIV J at rage 40 and 50.9% chance to beat with using HVAP

(the 76mm has even better chance if both units are moving)
(so 76mm is not "slightly better than stock M4A3 at beating P4s" but much better)

so according to the tool one should be using HVAP...


TL/DR I don't think a slight buff to 76MM's standard shell will put it over the top given how the rest of Mechanized was nerfed if it's going to be one of the main reasons you pick the doctrine.

If there is buff that should simply not be in ROF since the unit fire faster than other medium tanks.

On the other hand USF have access to one of the best TDs in game and 4 different versions of Sherman and making all them useful and balanced is a nightmare.

Currently it seem that Rifle company is a more attractive Commander and unless one buffs 76mm to be more cost efficient than Easy8 that will probably not change.
2 Apr 2022, 06:50 AM
#38
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



I think these are fair enough points but I still think OP's original point stands. (At this point it's pretty pie in the sky to think a unit rework will happen). "Medium Tank that's slightly better than stock M4A3 at beating P4s" just isn't a strong selling point.

Pre-nerf Mechanized was mostly used for Dodge Truck pressure and Dozer Shermans as far as I can remember. Meanwhile the ROF was the only real thing that made the 76MM somewhat attractive since it made up for the lack of HE shells when you weren't using HVAP (do people even use the HVAP on 76MM?). 76MM needs some semblance of AI perks otherwise you might as well get a Jackson if you want to tame P4s. This is even more true now that Mechanized's power level was nerfed pretty hard is other areas.

TL/DR I don't think a slight buff to 76MM's standard shell will put it over the top given how the rest of Mechanized was nerfed if it's going to be one of the main reasons you pick the doctrine.


Agreed. I also don’t like the toggleable HVAP shells. I’d rather have them be a timed ability like the M36’s.

76mm is absolutely UP atm.
2 Apr 2022, 19:23 PM
#39
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

rather than a direct buff, it needs a new role that M4A3 or jackson can't do.
2 Apr 2022, 19:32 PM
#40
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

The main problems with the old 76 mm were:

- powerspike of 2x76mm timed attack with Combined arms
- because of the RoF of the AP shell it wasn't necessary at all to switch to the AT shell, because the lower penetration chance vs heavy tanks was equated but the RoF. In the end AP shell had similar DPS vs heavy armored targets and higher DPS vs all other targets including infantry of course

They should have just removed Combined Arms and replaced it with an offmap ability.

With the nerf to AP RoF 76mm got worse vs infantry and lightly armored targets. This should have been compensated by other means like buffing AOE of AP shell. AT shell could have 50 range to make it more appealing in addition. That way 76mm would have stayed unique and maybe more of an alternative to the Jackson/M4A3 combo.

In the end 76mm is at the same tier as Jackson, only 20 fuel between them. If major fuel cost would have been split in two parts somehow and Jackson would come later than all Sherman variants as a heavy tank counter, the 76mm would see way more action without another single buff.
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