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russian armor

HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

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18 Nov 2021, 07:06 AM
#101
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

just make the 120 mm killable at 1 men remaining, make it 4 men crew, not 5 or six. and not retreat able


Lets give soviets stock forward hq with medics wich allows the 120mm reinforce on the front line. Same as the leig and pak howi.

Making it 4 men when axis already wipe 6 men easier then soviets wipe 4 is over the top. Just as giving soviets bundle nades vs 4 men ost squads.
20 Nov 2021, 13:50 PM
#102
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

I would increase the set up and tear down time by a lot.
20 Nov 2021, 21:51 PM
#103
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 926

yep someone on the balance team must love to turtle soviet, not only are 120mm mortar OP and the best mortar by far in the game, they also buffed the living shit out of B-4. What a joke.
21 Nov 2021, 06:21 AM
#104
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 63

Where do we start? This game features several factions that have mortars. The Soviet faction has a doctrinal mortar - HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad. While every unit in the game has certain disadvantages and conditions, this mortar has no disadvantages and conditions.

1) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad can retreat to base;
2) Squad strength of this mortar is 5, while the Minimal crew is 1;
3) Mortar barrage - Range of Fire - 95, and GrW 34 - 75 (for comparison)
4) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has Delayed Fused Rounds
Fires the heavy high-explosive rounds that detonate shortly after impacting the ground. (no commander, for comparison, the 7.5cm le.IG has an Incendiary Barrage in only one doctrine)
5) Reinforce Cost - 15


RESULTS:

HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has a high firing range, excellent survivability (squad strength, retreat capability, minimal crew - 1), excellent AOE, ability without a commander. Similar units are vulnerable to flank attacks by assault infantry (not always assault), all units with the exception of the HM-38.

SUGGESTIONS:

1.increase Reinforce Cost to 22

a) minimal crew - 2
or
b) cannot retreat
or
c) reduce range to 75
or
d) reduce AOE damage




agree on the minimal crew 2 and range reduced to be similar to other mortars, except when using special abilities. i got a kuestion, the delayed fuse bomb that has many times killed my Shewere, does it do more damage than regular barrage?

make the mortar cannot retreat. that is why i seldom use the Leig, except when i have the Shwerer covering it's ass. if the 120mm can retreat, the Leig should be able to retreat too

if i see the 120mm commanders on the Soviet opponent, i will seldom put my shwerer outside my base, and i wont be making machine guns of Leigs. Leigs cannot fight against 120mm at all
21 Nov 2021, 07:27 AM
#105
avatar of pornoke

Posts: 39


if i see the 120mm commanders on the Soviet opponent, i will seldom put my shwerer outside my base, and i wont be making machine guns of Leigs. Leigs cannot fight against 120mm at all


Soviet player always have the 120 on their roster as long as I can see this days...
21 Nov 2021, 09:15 AM
#106
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1


... the delayed fuse bomb that has many times killed my Shewere, does it do more damage than regular barrage?
..

Does 160 damage instead of 80
21 Nov 2021, 10:29 AM
#107
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Nov 2021, 21:51 PMspajn
yep someone on the balance team must love to turtle soviet, not only are 120mm mortar OP and the best mortar by far in the game, they also buffed the living shit out of B-4. What a joke.


The soviets dont have the same potentail to turtle as ost or brits. They lack the power of the mg42 and long range inf. They need to be agressive and on the move.

The one thing the 120mm does well is counter defensive/turtle/static play. It does so with the slowest rof out of all mortars, and costs quite a bit more as well.not 100% sure but the scatter seems to be bigger as well. Its defenitly not the best mortar by far. It has its weaknesses.

The 120mm is shit and a wasted investment if your opponent goes for a mobile stratagy. Yes even ost can go mobile. You not changing/adapting your play does not make a unit specificly used countering your playstyle OP by default.
21 Nov 2021, 12:00 PM
#108
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 63

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 09:15 AMVipper

Does 160 damage instead of 80


wow, that seems excessive
21 Nov 2021, 12:02 PM
#109
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 63



The soviets dont have the same potentail to turtle as ost or brits. They lack the power of the mg42 and long range inf. They need to be agressive and on the move.

The one thing the 120mm does well is counter defensive/turtle/static play. It does so with the slowest rof out of all mortars, and costs quite a bit more as well.not 100% sure but the scatter seems to be bigger as well. Its defenitly not the best mortar by far. It has its weaknesses.

The 120mm is shit and a wasted investment if your opponent goes for a mobile stratagy. Yes even ost can go mobile. You not changing/adapting your play does not make a unit specificly used countering your playstyle OP by default.


the problem with 120mm is, u cant cap or be near the soviets base. even in cover your health will melt
21 Nov 2021, 12:57 PM
#110
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1352



the problem with 120mm is, u cant cap or be near the soviets base. even in cover your health will melt


And in my last game a double OST mortar wiped 2 rifles capping one spot in 4 hits. That's 10 models in 4 hits, spread out. Compare it to 120mm, once you see the first shot, you know to move. With double OST mortars, the 4 shots can come in with seconds between them. If you decide to not move around when capping, it's your own fault. I'd understand double soviet mortar, but one 120mm. Nah
21 Nov 2021, 12:58 PM
#111
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 590 | Subs: 1



the problem with 120mm is, u cant cap or be near the soviets base. even in cover your health will melt


identical to any other fucking mortar/indirect light artillery in the game, amazing


and it falls slower than the 81mm mortars that do the exact same thing at a shorter range
21 Nov 2021, 13:35 PM
#112
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 549

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 12:58 PMKatukov


identical to any other fucking mortar/indirect light artillery in the game, amazing


and it falls slower than the 81mm mortars that do the exact same thing at a shorter range


Exactly. I think some people get a real placebo effect from the larger explosion visuals. It doesn't do *more* damage than the mortar, it just has better AOE.
21 Nov 2021, 13:54 PM
#113
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



the problem with 120mm is, u cant cap or be near the soviets base. even in cover your health will melt

Just like against PACK howi.
Just like against ISG near forward med truck.
Just like against UKF pit.
Except you need a doctrine pick for soviets.

The amount of stretching and ignoring facts people need to do to prove "red unit OP" is stunning.
21 Nov 2021, 14:02 PM
#114
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Exactly. I think some people get a real placebo effect from the larger explosion visuals. It doesn't do *more* damage than the mortar, it just has better AOE.

That sentence does not make much sense:

1) infatry HP is 80 so if a mortar did 160 damage it would still do 80 damage to a entity.

2) Better AOE profiles means that it will have wider kill radius and will do more damage at greater distance and that actually mean that a unit with better AOE profile it does do more total damage to infatry squad.
21 Nov 2021, 14:19 PM
#115
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 549

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 14:02 PMVipper

That sentence does not make much sense:

1) infatry HP is 80 so if a mortar did 160 damage it would still do 80 damage to a entity.

2) Better AOE profiles means that it will have wider kill radius and will do more damage at greater distance and that actually mean that a unit with better AOE profile it does do more total damage to infatry squad.


Right. Let's cool it with the semantics for a moment here and realize that we're saying the same thing. I said "it isn't doing *more* damage", as in it's not doing more damage on a direct hit or something, it's still 60 damage. And I said "it just has better AOE". Now, if you think about that statement for a moment, you will realize that having a better AOE implies doing more damage over the area of effect.

EDIT: I'm not mentioning the delayed fuse rounds because it's not applicable to infantry, because they can just move out of the way.
21 Nov 2021, 14:33 PM
#116
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Right. Let's cool it with the semantics for a moment here and realize that we're saying the same thing. I said "it isn't doing *more* damage", as in it's not doing more damage on a direct hit or something, it's still 60 damage. And I said "it just has better AOE". Now, if you think about that statement for a moment, you will realize that having a better AOE implies doing more damage over the area of effect.

EDIT: I'm not mentioning the delayed fuse rounds because it's not applicable to infantry, because they can just move out of the way.


PLS explain what in your opinion is semantics in this case.

If an infatry squad gets hit by mortar with better AOE profile the total damage its entity will receive will more than a mortar inferior AOE profile.

That has nothing to do with the "larger explosion visuals" and "real placebo effect", better AOE profile mean more damage.

(mortars generally do 80 damage not 60)
21 Nov 2021, 15:17 PM
#117
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 549

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 14:33 PMVipper


PLS explain what in your opinion is semantics in this case.

If an infatry squad gets hit by mortar with better AOE profile the total damage its entity will receive will more than a mortar inferior AOE profile.

That has nothing to do with the "larger explosion visuals" and "real placebo effect", better AOE profile mean more damage.

(mortars generally do 80 damage not 60)


Mortars haven't done 80 damage on direct hit since I don't even know how long ago. It's 68 damage (my bad on saying 60) and it's been standardized to that across all mortars. Though they technically do 80 damage it's not applicable to infantry because it literally doesn't do 80 damage to infantry no matter where you hit them.

Again, you're missing the point. The 120mm mortar and the normal mortar do the exact same damage, just 120mm has better AOE. It is literally implied in the statement that you will be doing more damage in an area because of the AOE being better. But are you doing strictly *more* damage? No.

If an axis squad is already clumped up behind green cover it's going to be hit just as hard by the normal mortar as by the 120, so long as the mortar hits right on it. Which is why I mentioned it being a "placebo" effect, because one of the posters was saying that it was "melting" infantry behind cover like it has some kind of special damage against them.

21 Nov 2021, 15:18 PM
#118
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2745 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 14:33 PMVipper

...

Come on, it is very clear what he said. Max damage stays the same.

And it could very well be that the larger visual effect tricks players into thinking this mortar is better than it actually is.
21 Nov 2021, 16:15 PM
#119
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1


Come on, it is very clear what he said. Max damage stays the same.

And it could very well be that the larger visual effect tricks players into thinking this mortar is better than it actually is.

It seem you might be missing context.

Saying that it has the same max damage, (which is 80 vs building and not 60 as he claim) is one thing.



Exactly. I think some people get a real placebo effect from the larger explosion visuals. It doesn't do *more* damage than the mortar, it just has better AOE.


Saying that some people are delusional when their units actually takes more damage is something else.

For example an infatry/support unit can be hit by mortar and lose 1/3 of health bar and it can also be hit with mortar with better AOE profile and lose 1/2 health bar. In the second case it will have suffer more total HP damage and that will not neither a placebo effect nor "large explosions visuals" effect illusion.

Better AOE will result in doing more damage in most cases.
21 Nov 2021, 16:31 PM
#120
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2745 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 16:15 PMVipper
...

No one ever claimed otherwise. You're trying to correct people for something they never said wrong.
He clearly stated that AoE is different, but max damage is not even before you tried to "correct" him. Please re-read his comments for context.
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