Login

russian armor

CoH2 Summer 2021 Balance Patch - BETA

PAGES (16)down
19 Aug 2021, 19:58 PM
#201
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1


And still 4 models means 5 if this was a regular mortar, since you need to kill 4 dudes to actually decrew it, but this is a start.
I also think that OST counter barrage should outrange the 120mm, currently it is 100m range same as barrage range for 120mm. For example 120mm even with that scatter has a very high chance of wiping OST counterpart (albeit with slight afk from the OST mortar), but not the other way around. Maybe give barrage same range and add give it back with veterancy. Even with 80 range it will have plenty of lethality.


Well as I was saying, some of 1v1 and 2v2 maps are more or less open, but the mojority of maps still providing you with either destructable or indestructible sight blockers allowing you to get 120 closer to the pottentual bombardment zone. Meaning that realistically mortar duel very rarely happen at max range to begin with.

Not to mention that (even judging by your video) barrage\delayed fuse of 120 still covers like half of map to begin with, and the 120mm was staying near its base, so realistically there is no way you can kill it to begin with. While Schwerer was placed aggresively (which is imo mistake made by OKW) its still impossible to repair it and it impossible to force away 120mm anyway.

And counter barrage is questinable, at best you will be able to direct hit it with first few shells and force it to retreat, but usually (from my expirience) 120mm mortar in general need like 2-3 shots to force retreat enemy inderect. But even with it, soviet player can just use barrage of his own against your mortar so CB arent solving anything.

On top of that in teamgames soviets can also pair with regular mortar and spam flares increasing 120mm mortar accuracy. I've lost so many squads to it, just because of its burst damage when they are paired, one landing near downing squad HP to like 20-30% with an instand follow up which is just wipes the squad.

In other words oppresive AF, I think right now the only way to counter it somewhat you either need to use Mortar HT as ost or zu-fuss as OKW, or maybe somehow survive untill LeFH.

My point is, if anything 120mm mortar should be a glass cannon (just like USF pack howi), it should be hitting hard, but it shoudnt outlive everything and be immune to other inderect units which are awaible at ~2CP mark.
19 Aug 2021, 20:59 PM
#202
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485

I'd like to not water-down all indirect units too much. We're pretty much there already, and it has made support weapon spam untenably obnoxious in many team games. 1 Mortar can't properly shut down an MG with smoke due to pack up times relative to smoke cooldown.

If you want to nerf double 120mm mortars, I would suggest increase the pop-cost so it costs more MP over time and punishes keeping them in a late game army. Pop-cost is how you control unit spam, its why 2 KV-1s just doesn't happen anymore.

I'm also exhausted at the MG+Mortar combos that dominate Red Ball Express, and aggressively urban maps with good garrison positions. City 17 and Essen Steelworks for example. I wish we could swap Counter Barrage for something else (flare?) on OST mortars. CB is just against the heart and soul of COH. A mortar that counters mortars so it can mortar freely leaves a bad taste. The best solution to any problem should be a combo of units.

I believe the 120mm autofire is currently REALLY iffy against anything besides buildings (Garrisoned MGs can bugger right off, there's a reason Breach is coming in COH3) at any range. It's the Barrages that hit like a truck. Which unlike other mortars, hit hard enough to threaten the team weapons. When you see the boom, move. They can't retarget as barrage has a long CD and autofire has brutal dispersion.

It doesn't have to be directly counterable, as many units are not. Especially by the same class of unit. Basically all rocket artillery aren't, Allied HTDs aren't, Axis SHTDs aren't, raketens aren't.

Also, I believe 120mm mortars aren't on any commander with heavy tanks, and only Shock Army Tactics can counter Howitzers. Though most of those commanders have the powerful T-34/85.
19 Aug 2021, 21:37 PM
#203
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 697

Reduce Ranger and 120mm mortar population plz
19 Aug 2021, 22:14 PM
#204
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 662

I'd like to not water-down all indirect units too much. We're pretty much there already, and it has made support weapon spam untenably obnoxious in many team games. 1 Mortar can't properly shut down an MG with smoke due to pack up times relative to smoke cooldown.

If you want to nerf double 120mm mortars, I would suggest increase the pop-cost so it costs more MP over time and punishes keeping them in a late game army. Pop-cost is how you control unit spam, its why 2 KV-1s just doesn't happen anymore.

I'm also exhausted at the MG+Mortar combos that dominate Red Ball Express, and aggressively urban maps with good garrison positions. City 17 and Essen Steelworks for example. I wish we could swap Counter Barrage for something else (flare?) on OST mortars. CB is just against the heart and soul of COH. A mortar that counters mortars so it can mortar freely leaves a bad taste. The best solution to any problem should be a combo of units.

If HMGs are problem then solution shouldn't be in 3 commanders and 1 faction. This is way too specific.

I can't say about Gachi, but in my opinion the lethality on this unit is too much. So we got the HMG counter, that becomes and all infantry counter, hence the 0.5 moving accuracy penalty and buffs in cover. This is sort of like with the ST that was supposed to counter blobs, but ended up countering everything lmao

But the idea with popcap is great. If people are OK with lethality being this bonkers the Survivability, price, popcap and, of course, timing should be adjusted (2cp for this monster is a bit early).

I understand that Balance team would not want this unit to be nerfed to the ground like it was with almost every indirect, but 120mm definitely needs some decisive nerfs and it is a matter of time till this topic was raised. Hell, even balance team acknowledged this with their autofire range nerf to 80.
19 Aug 2021, 23:26 PM
#205
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1


I can't say about Gachi, but in my opinion the lethality on this unit is too much.


I would say that either keep the lethality but make it significantly easier to counter it with inderects, so at least agressive or careless placement of it would be punishable.

Approach of nerfing its cost\timing is also can be chosen. Timing is especially broken, because its super easy to just play untill 2CP just with cons\penals and then call in 120mm mortar.

But the question is, by how much you would push it? You can use ST aproach and push it back by 2CPs, making it 4. This would make it significantly harder to play just with inf into strate 120mm mortar, but imo, it wont solve the problem unless you are not badly loosing.

For 1v1, yes it will nerf it quite drastically, but its questinable if it will do so for 2v2+, because even with 4CPs, ones it hits the field, even by 4CP timing you wont have any real counters to it.

Sure you will have more established army and maybe you will be able to snowball based on that, but if we imagine that the game is 50\50 then there wont be any major changes.

Well for OKW it will be easier to deal with it, IF OKW decided to rush zu-fuss, but if he dont, nothing really changes.

And ofcouse its perfomance can be nerfed aswell, but since its a last coh2 patch I woudnt risk it, coz we can end up with useless unit.
20 Aug 2021, 02:52 AM
#206
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485

The generic solution to HMGs for allies in team games is to ban specific maps where they are a problem. Don't play Redball or Essen Steelworks, or a pretty big selection of maps. Laney maps and maps with REALLY long retreat times, with Redball being worst of all worlds. Once these problem children are dealt with, flanking becomes a viable option, so infantry micro gets work done.

Snipers are a joke in 4v4, they tend to die to something random or a LV due to the LONG retreat path.

If we had more time, we could incorporate non-doc rocket artillery into all factions to provide a late game solution to team weapon camping, but that wont happen. There is not the time.

for CP, I regularly play just conscripts and engineer with maybe 1 AT gun up through 4 CP in team games. Some data points I stripped from 1v1: CP2 is about 6min. 222 pops about 3 CP, 7:30. Generally The T-70 pops just about 4CP, 9-10 min. The P-4 is at 12-14 min for OST, 15 for OKW. The question for balance, is it worth pushing the 120mm back to beyond first LV, and give it a window of 2-3 min of solid shock power before Tanks limit movement from the current 6 minutes.

That might be too much of a nerf, as 120mm are only useful till rocket artillery is on the field at which point they will be struck and killed on CD. And they are NOT cheap.

Its tricky. We have to get this right in 1 patch...
20 Aug 2021, 04:46 AM
#207
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1


That might be too much of a nerf, as 120mm are only useful till rocket artillery is on the field at which point they will be struck and killed on CD. And they are NOT cheap.


I slightly disagree with that. Even IF rocket arty was always a garantee ista-nuke, 120mm still have around
~8-9mins of dominating the field without any oppossition (if there is no stuka that is). But even if enemy is forced to rush rocket arty and he is forced to bombard your 120mm mortar its already a win, since he is not only delaying his armor by also wasting arty on your mortar in hopes of decrewing it.

But it still a fact that perfomance wise I think allies really need it as it is, especially for larger gamemodes, thats why I'm more about survivability nerf, to tone down its agression a bit and at least be able to force retreat it.

Even if it is nerfed, you still have an upper hand over pretty much any inderects (aside from stuka and mortar HT) axis can throw at you for a good amount of time.
20 Aug 2021, 04:50 AM
#208
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 527



Cant it be lowerd to just 4 models then? .

120mm has had nothing but nerfs,if you can't deal with them it's a l2p issue
20 Aug 2021, 08:36 AM
#209
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 484


120mm has had nothing but nerfs,if you can't deal with them it's a l2p issue


Agreed. I have never had an issue going against the 120mm due to its slow firing rate.

Also we shouldn't be nerfing indirect fire due to the prevalence of team weapon spam.



One of the biggest failures of COH 2 is the fact that they chose to be lazy and apply a one shoe fits all approach when it comes to unit damage.

For example Mortars usually do around 80 damage to all targets assuming it is a direct hit.

Why not instead make Mortars do 40 damage but then they do the full 80 damage vs Team Weapons (MGs/Mortars/AT Guns etc) this would allow Mortars to be made more consistent (by increasing AOE/improving scatter) while not acting as ranged snipers and 1 shotting squads from across the map while still being great at the one thing you want a mortar for...which is to counter MG spam.


They tried numerous ways to make indirect fire better (adding suppression for example) but never actually went and did the thing that would make sense because it would take an extra 5 minutes of work to add scaling based on unit type as it is very easy to do in the modding tools.
20 Aug 2021, 08:42 AM
#210
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

I don't know what the obsession is with having Ostruppen get the LMG at BP2. BP3 timing was fine in the past, don't think Ostruppen should get upgrades before other mainlines can when they are absurdly cheap relatively speaking. 1 step forward 2 steps backward with this 2nd version of the patch imo, plus the Sniper change is hardly noticeable now. AT guns also need a slight pop cap increase to address the double AT gun metagame that has existed for years now. Move the LMG back to BP3, if people want to get LMG's faster they can skip Tier 2 and go for the Supply Drop to get a Pak and MG plus extra resources.
20 Aug 2021, 09:10 AM
#211
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 662



Agreed. I have never had an issue going against the 120mm due to its slow firing rate.

Also we shouldn't be nerfing indirect fire due to the prevalence of team weapon spam.



One of the biggest failures of COH 2 is the fact that they chose to be lazy and apply a one shoe fits all approach when it comes to unit damage.

For example Mortars usually do around 80 damage to all targets assuming it is a direct hit.

Why not instead make Mortars do 40 damage but then they do the full 80 damage vs Team Weapons (MGs/Mortars/AT Guns etc) this would allow Mortars to be made more consistent (by increasing AOE/improving scatter) while not acting as ranged snipers and 1 shotting squads from across the map while still being great at the one thing you want a mortar for...which is to counter MG spam.


They tried numerous ways to make indirect fire better (adding suppression for example) but never actually went and did the thing that would make sense because it would take an extra 5 minutes of work to add scaling based on unit type as it is very easy to do in the modding tools.

The issue with 120mm is that you have no way of countering it and 120mm counters leIGs, HMGs, AT guns, infantry fighting in cover, static buildings like tech building for OKW and so on, while OKW has to go mechanized to at least pressure the 120mm, because you need to kill 4 models to at least decrew that thing. With OST it is all bad, because Werfer is an RNG cannon and is very inconsistent if you fire further then 60..70 ish meters, so it is not even worth for OST to try doing anything against it, unless you go LeFH, which is a less then desirable solution at least for me.

I think 120mm is so good that the single mortar might outperform 2 leIG
20 Aug 2021, 09:37 AM
#212
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 484


because Werfer is an RNG cannon and is very inconsistent if you fire further then 60..70 ish meters

I think 120mm is so good that the single mortar might outperform 2 leIG



And do you think that the 120MM is able to hit anything at maximum range? Especially if it is firing into the fog of war (all indirect fire get a 30% penalty firing into the fog of war)

The 120 MM needs to get close to the front lines if you want the shell to actually hit anything.
20 Aug 2021, 10:10 AM
#213
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1




And do you think that the 120MM is able to hit anything at maximum range? Especially if it is firing into the fog of war (all indirect fire get a 30% penalty firing into the fog of war)

The 120 MM needs to get close to the front lines if you want the shell to actually hit anything.


Do you think people use 120mm mortar at max range to begin with? What is this aurgument anyway, if regular mortar can be placed offensively on the map, then 120mm can be placed offensively aswell winning all the inderect duels and having remarkable accuracy.

Also why wouldnt you want to get it closer to the front line?
20 Aug 2021, 10:10 AM
#214
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 662




And do you think that the 120MM is able to hit anything at maximum range? Especially if it is firing into the fog of war (all indirect fire get a 30% penalty firing into the fog of war)

The 120 MM needs to get close to the front lines if you want the shell to actually hit anything.

isn't it has lower scatter to range ration then other mortars, while having 1.5x better AOE? AFAIK 120mm should have similar scatter at 100 as a regular mortar at 80, but due to 120mm having substantially better AOE, it is actually more likely to deal damage. But don't quote me on that one, because I'm very cautious about mortar stats from serelia. But the info seems alright, since the mortar feels too accurate at 70..80 ranges.
20 Aug 2021, 11:52 AM
#215
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1160


The issue with 120mm is that you have no way of countering it and 120mm counters leIGs, HMGs, AT guns, infantry fighting in cover, static buildings like tech building for OKW and so on, while OKW has to go mechanized to at least pressure the 120mm, because you need to kill 4 models to at least decrew that thing. With OST it is all bad, because Werfer is an RNG cannon and is very inconsistent if you fire further then 60..70 ish meters, so it is not even worth for OST to try doing anything against it, unless you go LeFH, which is a less then desirable solution at least for me.

I think 120mm is so good that the single mortar might outperform 2 leIG


The 120 has a slower rof bigger scatter. It takes quite long to vet up imo, cuz its rof is low and acccuracy it misses a lot more esp at max range where people tend to use it. Its also 360mp has inflated popcap afaik to limit spam potential, maybe they changed that.

People just get intimidated by the big oompf sound it makes, while it only has a bit bigger aoe and quite a bit more range.

A single 120 is not as good as 2 leigs. Unlike the 120 the leig is quite accurate, it hits its targets more often.
20 Aug 2021, 12:38 PM
#216
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83

Some feedback regarding the new unit visuals:

The new spirtes are great, but I wouldn't use conscript models for guards, that's just too misleading. The visual information that they are elite infantry is imho important when quickly glancing over the battlefield. Perhaps you could use the capeless guard model that is now unused instead? That will give them clear visual identity different from classic guards and cons, while also remaining consistent with the portrait.

For the same reason Guards airbourne should not be using engineer models for their winter variants. Just use a different tint of the sniper winter overalls that is used on live. That will make the unit more consistent in appearence and distinguished from engies. And again, it will remain consistent with the portrait.

The jäger command squad looks absolutely great, but the portrait should be updated as well – I suggest using sniper gear as a base and jäger/stormtrooper portrait for the face. This is basically what you are currently doing with new units like guards airbourne, assault tommies and assault guards, right? By the way, the smaller portrait for JCS is incorrect too, it uses artillery officer portrait instead of jäger one.

The summer version of the MG34 team look perhaps a bit low-res compared to other skins. Isn't it directly ported from COH1? I wouldn't do that if that's the case, because too much variety in resolution between comparably sized assets is very noticeable and kinda damages the overall picture, but perhaps I'm too nitpicky here.

On a related note, would it be possible to bring back the improved cape physics for standard guards? It was in the game briefly when guard model was used for the 7th conscript and it looked glorious, much better than the glued version.
20 Aug 2021, 14:37 PM
#217
avatar of PvtBaker

Posts: 4

Speaking of the new visuals, I would suggest changing the UKF Assault Officer's bodyguards to the new Raid Section models. Given how the Raid Section now looks like British paratroopers, it would be a much better fit for the Officer than the regular tommies he currently hangs out with.

20 Aug 2021, 15:42 PM
#218
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 21

Buff Partysans.
Buff sniper in an m3.
Give me back Irregulars.
Make USF lategame OP again
Unban katitof
My demands are unconditional
21 Aug 2021, 01:25 AM
#219
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 414 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2021, 12:38 PMDharx
Some feedback regarding the new unit visuals:

The new spirtes are great, but I wouldn't use conscript models for guards, that's just too misleading. The visual information that they are elite infantry is imho important when quickly glancing over the battlefield. Perhaps you could use the capeless guard model that is now unused instead? That will give them clear visual identity different from classic guards and cons, while also remaining consistent with the portrait.

For the same reason Guards airbourne should not be using engineer models for their winter variants. Just use a different tint of the sniper winter overalls that is used on live. That will make the unit more consistent in appearence and distinguished from engies. And again, it will remain consistent with the portrait.

The jäger command squad looks absolutely great, but the portrait should be updated as well – I suggest using sniper gear as a base and jäger/stormtrooper portrait for the face. This is basically what you are currently doing with new units like guards airbourne, assault tommies and assault guards, right? By the way, the smaller portrait for JCS is incorrect too, it uses artillery officer portrait instead of jäger one.

The summer version of the MG34 team look perhaps a bit low-res compared to other skins. Isn't it directly ported from COH1? I wouldn't do that if that's the case, because too much variety in resolution between comparably sized assets is very noticeable and kinda damages the overall picture, but perhaps I'm too nitpicky here.

On a related note, would it be possible to bring back the improved cape physics for standard guards? It was in the game briefly when guard model was used for the 7th conscript and it looked glorious, much better than the glued version.


As I said before, updated portraits are in the works. This is a beta preview.

Capeless guards looks very bland and lacks a lot of detail. Conscript model is the most historically representative of most Soviet troops. The green tunic should be easily distinguishable; nobody has really complained about Stormtrooper vs Panzergrenadier skins.

Although I personally wouldn't mind using the sniper model in winter, complaints about the historical rareness of the budenovka led us to opt for a different model, one that was simply generically more historically representative. Believe it or not, Engineer model actually seems to be modeled after Soviet Airborne jumpsuit, and we had already designed a skin for even the summer model of engineers, but the camo smock was the balance team's favorite.

The MG34 crew is literally the same resolution as the MG42. Compare them side by side and you'll see that it was the MG42 skin that was 'ported' from CoH1. Also, if you haven't noticed, CoH2 uses plenty of rehashed CoH1 content, such as MP40, MG42, .30cal, old .50/StG44 (both of which has now been replaced). This is as unfortunately good as we're going to get as there is no other German model with ammo belt.

EDIT: On the subject of capes w/physics, there are some issues with it. Some are small, like slight clipping, or some issues with suppressed movement. The most noticable issue is that crewing an anti-tank gun makes the capes disappear.
21 Aug 2021, 05:32 AM
#220
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 592

me and a few buds been using the hell out of the 120mm mortar and the shells just takes to long to get to there target for what it does. its expensive like the pack howitzer isnt it? it should be able to kill just as good at least. the scatter is also not all that good. units have to be hurt to get kills so that means 2-3 hits with good accuracy. but how many misses did it take to hit 3 times u kno? the timed ability is cool but i can kill structures with the regular barrage to and save munis even tho it might take only a little bit longer to kill. direct hits should kill. its a 120 mm HE mortar shell...drags like hell to aim shoot stay in air and hit target.. the pop cap is huge. and i still have to buy katyushas for simple weapon crews cuz 120mm will not get many kills. ive been getting more kills with regular 81mm mortar and it smokes faster, way cheaper, way less pop cap
PAGES (16)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
ML Scorched Earth 2

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

Board Info

87 users are online: 4 members and 83 guests
Mithiriath, ShadowLinkX37, DooMaSS, Protos Angelus
106 posts in the last 24h
488 posts in the last week
1617 posts in the last month
Registered members: 27194
Welcome our newest member, Randleman
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM