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Why do Axis Rocket Arty have to 'oneshot' ?

Rocket Artillery is too effective vs Self-Propelled guns at wiping infantry?
Option Distribution Votes
39%
61%
Total votes: 23
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
16 May 2021, 22:57 PM
#1
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 42

Teamgames.

Why do Axis Rocket Arty have to 'oneshot' allied infantry? What part of the Axis vs. Allies game balance makes this a necessary feature and with such reliability? Yes, I am aware Allies can do it with Katyushas and Self-Propelled Guns, but the chance to one shot a squad is much lower as the shells land much slower than the rockets, which commonly wipe entire blobs. Allied Arty is over time, a comparative 'DoT' to the rocket artys 'Burst' type barrages.

I propose adjusting the damage to be lethal enough to wipe to continue to do massive damage to a squad on its own, but not be so prone and easy to wipe the squad instantly, without any retreat (Or during... Walking Stuka says hi.

This is more from a 3v3/4v4 game mode where, due to the maps, the Werfer's and Stuka's can easily do massive damage and economical man power damage in the long run. Is this idea that you're not meant to have a chance vs lategame Axis if/when (with their ease of setting up caches they get there ahead or something? Why?

It's not skillful. It isn't a nice experience, its just genuinely infuriating to lose a squad instantly or without much skill from the opposition in a game where losing a unit is a serious blow or an invitation to attack and lose the game, either that attack or the next.

I feel the game would be more enjoyable for all, 1v1 and teamgames if they were to be toned down.

I see no reason Relic should't also consider teamgames when balancing, plenty of people play them almost exclusively and therefore also bring in revenue. They either enjoy team games for the mass carnage or the competitive teamplay aspect, but I digress.
16 May 2021, 23:23 PM
#2
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5214

rocket arty is interesting, each ones pro is also its con. axis rockets are accurate, this also make em easier to dodge if you can predict where they will shoot.
allied rockets scatter making them nearly impossible to dodge, but also more difficult to aim properly and adds an element of RNG.

aint always greener on the other side, just a matter of predicating where they are targeting and use their strength against them.
17 May 2021, 09:26 AM
#3
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 256

Axis rocket arty have a bigger punch per salvo but Allied rocket arty is better at clearing out weapon teams and emplacements.

It plays into the army design too. Allies are supposed to have durable/resilient squads. One shots tend to happen if you're not paying attention but can be avoided fairly easily. The higher mode count for most allied squads means your squads will *most* of the time stay alive with some minor adjustments.

Axis have superior weapon teams in exchange for smaller squads so it makes sense for Allied rocket arty to be better at clearing weapon teams rather than one shotting squads. As with all rocket arty, damage can be mitigated/avoided if you're paying attention.

My one grip with rocket arty is not all factions have a stock rocket arty option which is a necessity in team games.

17 May 2021, 09:29 AM
#4
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

All rocket arty is roughly equal with the exception of the Stuka. Their scatter increases considerably with range. The Katyusha and Calliope are just as deadly/wipey in a shotgun volley as the Panzerwerfer. And all three have equally terrible scatter at max range.

There is no bias or real difference here. Except for the Stuka, but the pinpoint accuracy on that one has the obvious drawback that it's also relatively easy to dodge with infantry. The Panzerwerfer only works well when used from more risky close to mid ranges. I suggest you try playing Axis so you can see for yourself their rocket arty performance is not as straightforward as it might seem from the other side, by eliminating confirmation bias. And probably start using your Calliope and Katyusha from closer ranges.
17 May 2021, 09:57 AM
#5
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 264

The spec of rocket artys are more or less even. They do have pros and cons. The only exception here is the LM from UKF. Worst one in all the ways.

The problem is that UKF/USF don't have stock rocket arty. So player is forced to pick commander in 3v3/4v4.

And fast timing of walking stuka is the problem I believe. I already made a thread about this. And I have seen so many plays in recent 2v2 tournament to back this up.
17 May 2021, 13:55 PM
#6
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5214

The spec of rocket artys are more or less even. They do have pros and cons. The only exception here is the LM from UKF. Worst one in all the ways.

The problem is that UKF/USF don't have stock rocket arty. So player is forced to pick commander in 3v3/4v4.

And fast timing of walking stuka is the problem I believe. I already made a thread about this. And I have seen so many plays in recent 2v2 tournament to back this up.

Even the LM has pros, like being able to recrew and being way cheaper. It's performance reflects its price though tbh...
17 May 2021, 14:11 PM
#7
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 969

Depends. Does rocket arty wipe better? Yes. However, one must take note of the lane-y design of 3v3+ maps. There are no brainer lanes where you would want to fire your stuka and pockets of area where you'd want to fire a werfer. Combined with the fact that it comes all in one salvo. If it's not dodged... goodnight.

Mobile arty on the other hand is more of an area denial. You see the first two shells and you know where it's targeted so you get out. If you don't react. Goodnight
17 May 2021, 14:22 PM
#8
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 264


being able to recrew


Q) Does tank kill unit with one shot?
LM: yes
others: yes

Q) Does small arms fire decrew the squad?
LM: yes
others: no

I don't ksee how recrewing is pro....

Yes it does have largest AOE & fireing time. Is it pro? I don't think so...But one may see it as a area denial tool.
17 May 2021, 18:47 PM
#9
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 402

I'm pretty sure I posted about this already. What we are discussing is Shock Artillery, which is basically entirely Rocket Artillery. Quality shock artillery is all about rapid area saturation. That's about 4 rockets/second with the scatter of a shotgunning Calliope. The Calliope and Pwerfer do this naturally if forward positioned aggressively. The Katy does this for the first salvo, but the other 3 salvos come much too slow for shock.

The Land Mattress shoots something like 2.5 rockets/second over a massive area. It is area denial, NOT shock artillery.

This all changes if you stack rocket arty. the more arty, the farther and more area one can saturate with that critical "wipe" quantity. This is why 2 LM is about able to properly act as shock arty, why 2 Calliopes just murders blobs instantly, why 2 Pwerfers seem to hit everything they shoot at.

There's a point where your shock arty gets so nasty it kills tanks. All rockets deflect for 40 damage, so thats 16 rockets to kill a medium. With 4 Calliopes/Pwerfers that's a reasonable chance. The old Stukas used to (inconsistently) murder tank lines due to huge AoE pen and damage.

The balance is tricky. Too much saturation ensures wipes, too little means no bleed. See shotgunning Calliope/Pwerfer for one side and Land Mattress for the other. Pwerfer and Calliope look alright at the moment as long as there is only 1. LM looks alright as long as there is 2.

I suggest just ensure they are really pop-intensive. There isn't any great options to counter mechanized rocket arty, so the rocket arty should really take up space in a late game build to punish spamming.
17 May 2021, 19:02 PM
#10
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3126 | Subs: 1

Land Mattress sucks, all other rocket arty is relatively well balanced imo. As long as we include the upcoming survivability nerf for Calli I mean
17 May 2021, 19:12 PM
#11
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 42

None of the responses have answered or attempted to answer what I asked directly and I explained I know they can be dodged, that one is area denial DoT and one is Burst. I don't understand why people are posting with whatever is in their heads rather than answering the op??

WHY do Axis need such power? It would be more fun if it was still devastating but less prone to wipe squads. Im aware it can be dodged, Im aware of the maps being greatly beneficial to Arty fests, I'm aware that a med can flank and kill them.

I WANT them to bleed as heavily as they do, I do NOT have a problem with them, I'm just asking why they need to be such potent weapons at entirely wiping squads rather than, for EXAMPLE, leaving 1-3 models with literally no health. That would at least let you recover with a timely retreat.

Im not talking about balance, I'm asking WHY is the balance the way it is??

For the record I think Calliopes are devasting just like all rocket arty, but unlike Axis rocket arty it is DoT (in theory, in practice not as much) and does not wipe as reliably unless you factor in retreating units, much like the Stuka. Unlike the Stuka it's burst/alphastrike/whatever you call it here is much more potent. So again, why do Axis specifically need the oneshot-ability and Allies do not. I have a pretty good grasp of the game mechanics and tbh I know almost all of what has been said.

Why does Axis rocket arty need to be able to wipe better?
17 May 2021, 19:22 PM
#12
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

Why does Axis rocket arty need to be able to wipe better?

Multiple people have explained that this is not the case. The Katyusha and the Calliope are on par with the Panzerwerfer in terms of wiping potential. The Land Mattress and Stuka have their own functionality and the Stuka is not necessarily better at wiping than anything else. That you apparently choose to ignore this does not mean people did not answer your question.


For the record I think Calliopes are devasting just like all rocket arty, but unlike Axis rocket arty it is DoT (in theory, in practice not as much) and does not wipe as reliably unless you factor in retreating units

The Calliope is meant to be used at close to medium range. Not from long range. It is not DoT, it is the ultimate shotgun unit. That is why it has higher durability than other rocket arty. It's the most reliable at wiping when you use it right.
17 May 2021, 19:31 PM
#13
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 42


Multiple people have explained that this is not the case. The Katyusha and the Calliope are on par with the Panzerwerfer in terms of wiping potential. The Land Mattress and Stuka have their own functionality and the Stuka is not necessarily better at wiping than anything else. That you apparently choose to ignore this does not mean people did not answer your question.



The Calliope is meant to be used at close to medium range. Not from long range. It is not DoT, it is the ultimate shotgun unit. That is why it has higher durability than other rocket arty. It's the most reliable at wiping when you use it right.


This I can get behind, even if I don't agree.
17 May 2021, 20:55 PM
#14
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

All rocket arty is roughly equal with the exception of the Stuka. Their scatter increases considerably with range. The Katyusha and Calliope are just as deadly/wipey in a shotgun volley as the Panzerwerfer. And all three have equally terrible scatter at max range.

There is no bias or real difference here. Except for the Stuka, but the pinpoint accuracy on that one has the obvious drawback that it's also relatively easy to dodge with infantry. The Panzerwerfer only works well when used from more risky close to mid ranges. I suggest you try playing Axis so you can see for yourself their rocket arty performance is not as straightforward as it might seem from the other side, by eliminating confirmation bias. And probably start using your Calliope and Katyusha from closer ranges.


timing
18 May 2021, 14:42 PM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5214



Q) Does tank kill unit with one shot?
LM: yes
others: yes

Q) Does small arms fire decrew the squad?
LM: yes
others: no

I don't ksee how recrewing is pro....

Yes it does have largest AOE & fireing time. Is it pro? I don't think so...But one may see it as a area denial tool.

You don't see how recrewing is a pro? OK consider this:
You pop a partisan squad behind an enemy pwerfer and kill it. The werfer is gone.
You pop stormtroopers behind a lamdmatress and wipe it. Oh the enemy recrewed it and it's firing again...

You need to target the gun to kill it, making dives take a bit longer, the unit isn't great, but don't pretend that the ability to keep it shooting even if you lost it isn't a pro. It undermines your argument that it's bad when you don't acknowledge its pros.
18 May 2021, 15:15 PM
#16
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 264


You don't see how recrewing is a pro? OK consider this:
You pop a partisan squad behind an enemy pwerfer and kill it. The werfer is gone.
You pop stormtroopers behind a lamdmatress and wipe it. Oh the enemy recrewed it and it's firing again...

You need to target the gun to kill it, making dives take a bit longer, the unit isn't great, but don't pretend that the ability to keep it shooting even if you lost it isn't a pro. It undermines your argument that it's bad when you don't acknowledge its pros.


When we are saying recrewing, it means it being a crewed weapon, instead of being a vehicle. As a crewed weapon, it can be decrewed with small arms, much slower in mobility, takes extra time to stop, or start moving. Not to mention it has shortest range with long minimum range. And LM is the only crewed weapon that can be decrwed instantly when weapon is destroyed. So tanks don't have to shoot it's crew.

So yes. I don't see how it's a pro. You mentioned partisan squad. I guess with schrek? Why not just destroy LM with schrek instead of decrewing wirh small arms?

Or is this about partisan with nothing but small arms destroyed my light vehicle?
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