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Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

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12 May 2021, 20:24 PM
#641
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 187

The problem of HEAT rounds is that it should have custom stats for each vehicle. Its damage buff is pointless for mediums against mediums but very good on the puma because it grants 160 damage per shot, and on the King Tiger

Panzer Commander is very useful, and I think the offmap is great. It can even destroy an emplacement if brace is on cooldown or abandoned team weapons if I can't keep the tank stationary and forces every team weapon to move or lose. It also grants +10 sight and +10 accuracy


Instead of active dmg and penetration i would rather have passive penetration (and maybe accuracy). Or maybe 2 different modes similar to the Sherman, so i can choose between normal and heat shells (something like slower reload and better dmg/penetration). It just feels awful to press heatshells-> miss 1 shot and bounce the other one. Nice impact lol.
12 May 2021, 21:50 PM
#642
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 687

Hope rework IRStg ability again……
Bundle with Volks MP40,rename Assault package,and upgrade give Ober 10% damage reduction,increase cost to 80 same as LMG34
StormPioneer Flamethrowe bundle with Support Gun Incendiary Munitions
Maybe Goliath could for more commander?Use Early warning system Replace Special OPS officer?
MMX
13 May 2021, 06:49 AM
#643
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1


[...]


I agree with the point that the 221 kind of locks out going Mechanized due to the delay caused by the 221 (and upgrade to the 223). This is pretty unfortunate since the Puma synergizes quite well with HEAT shells, but ofc you always have the option to skip the 221/223 altogether. Other than that I feel you vastly underestimate the utility of both the Tank Commander upgrade and HEAT shells.


Tank Commander

I don't understand the point of this upgrade. It gives a little more sight range (Not much) but you lose out on an important LMG upgrade. Then, you get what should be a good Artillery call in. Thing takes forever to land and doesn't drop as much as you'd hope.


The upgrade (unless this was changed somehow) adds a whopping + 10 sight, which translates into 29% greater sight radius for the P4 or KT and effectively lets them self-spot up until max range. This is huge and IMHO easily worth the slight loss of DPS in most cases (especially for the KT). And that doesn't even take the extra 10% accuracy into account which is always nice to have.
The arty call-in is admittedly not really that great on paper, but can be really helpful in forcing team weapons to relocate. This comes especially handy against AT guns and can often keep them out of a fight long enough to safely assault and overwhelm an entrenched position or get out of harms way without being picked apart on retreat.



HEAT Rounds

These are okayish? You'd want to use them on a P4 since the Pen on them aren't great at all or even a Puma. Thing is, the dmg boost is negligible against everything other then a heavy tank. So it just sort of feels underwhelming. The Jackson heat rounds are valuable because of its base high pen mixed with fighting extremely heavy armor. Plus I think it buffs the Jacksons accuracy?


The damage boost (30%) is only really ineffective against medium tanks, but helps enormously against pretty much anything else. Considering the ability lasts 20 sec, you're guaranteed to get 4 HEAT shots for the P4 if you time the activation correctly (assuming the worst-case scenario of drawing 3x the max reload of 5.7 s this sill gives you a 1.7 s window to activate). That translates into a huge advantage (without even considering the 30% bonus pen you get on top of that) in the following scenarios:

  • 400 HP targets die in two shots instead of three. This lets you two-hit things like Stuarts, AECs, Scotts and Calliopes.
  • 720 HP targets, such as the Easy 8 or Dozer will die in 4 shots instead of 5. In fact, you can even afford to miss one of your four HEAT shells and will still be able to finish off the tank with a regular 160-DMG shell mixed in somewhere.
  • 800 HP targets (i.e. the Comet and T-34/85) will also require 4 shots instead of 5, although you'll need all 4 HEAT shells to hit in this case.
  • Everything bigger will usually require one less shot to take down as you can only achieve a ~192 dmg surplus compared to regular shells, but if you have 2 P4s with HEAT shells firing at the same target, heavies will melt even quicker than that 1 shot difference


On top of that, HEAT shells also give you quite a sizeable boost in AI performance. A KT with HEAT activated will have a 40% greater OHK area than with the regular shell which is very much noticeable in-game.
13 May 2021, 07:23 AM
#644
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 114

I really don't understand the sentiment, that there needs to be changed more about elite armour other than the 221/3 and ST.

Everything else is very viable, and people who deem heat shells or panzer commander as insufficient have lost a marble in my opinion.

I agree with that the 221/3 does not synergize well with the rest of the commander, given that it would delay things like the puma. But on the other hand, the commander effectively keeps the puma relevant with the added pen of heat shells imo.

In the end the commander will still be fine if the 221/3 stays unchanged, but the ST needs to be addressed or taken out of the commander. Its a "fun" unit but basically useless with it having not really a defined role at which it is good/better at compared to non-doc choices.
If I want a meat shield with an AOE ability I'll a KT w/ Panzer commander.

Edit: To add on to the 221/3, it simply needs its veterancy looked at. Make it easier to level or put the riegel mine somewhere it actually achievable. (alas I repeat myself)
13 May 2021, 14:53 PM
#645
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

I really don't understand the sentiment, that there needs to be changed more about elite armour other than the 221/3 and ST.

Everything else is very viable, and people who deem heat shells or panzer commander as insufficient have lost a marble in my opinion.

I agree with that the 221/3 does not synergize well with the rest of the commander, given that it would delay things like the puma. But on the other hand, the commander effectively keeps the puma relevant with the added pen of heat shells imo.

In the end the commander will still be fine if the 221/3 stays unchanged, but the ST needs to be addressed or taken out of the commander. Its a "fun" unit but basically useless with it having not really a defined role at which it is good/better at compared to non-doc choices.
If I want a meat shield with an AOE ability I'll a KT w/ Panzer commander.

Edit: To add on to the 221/3, it simply needs its veterancy looked at. Make it easier to level or put the riegel mine somewhere it actually achievable. (alas I repeat myself)


The ST finally getting reworked into something other than a meme unit?

13 May 2021, 15:31 PM
#646
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 534


This is also not correct. The UC is very threatening to the 221, especially when you can't make use of 221 mobility if the UC is supported. An upgraded UC will completely demolish a 221, and same for any other micro light that is upgraded or supported. The 221 has superior mobility to those vehicles, but its the prey and not the hunter, so it's rather easy to deny the use of the offensive capabilities of the 221 without making dedicated at investments. WC51 is very hot, is actually the most popular USF doctrine, which is why it's getting nerfs in this patch, and the wc also counters the 221


So what do we have with 221? High mobility, high vision, very early timing, one of the best anti-infantry DPS during its timing and slightly beyond that (UC is pretty good, I agree, but faction is in a bad shape imo) and ability to get double resource gain from any resource points for 15 fuel + 85 range vehicle maphack.

Yes, the penetration is pretty bad on its mg, but everything else is pretty good for its timing. I think you are making a mistake comparing 223 vs m20, because you don't build 223 at that timing, it is pretty pointless doing it, imo. You get 221 first and then, if it survives, you decide you want that extra HP and utility out of it or not.
13 May 2021, 17:08 PM
#647
avatar of MarkedRaptor

Posts: 320

jump backJump back to quoted post13 May 2021, 06:49 AMMMX


I agree with the point that the 221...



The upgrade (unless this was changed somehow) adds a whopping + 10 sight...



The damage boost (30%) is only really ineffective against medium tanks....



That information about stuart killing/greater AOE is very informative. Though I feel like if you were going to kill a stuart you'd of done so because it was low and you were chasing. I can see instances where a stuart is caught out against a P4 and you want to kill it fast and thats when the HEAT shells would be good. I'd be ok with the ability not being universally useful if the other commander traits made up for it.

My issue is if you don't get a 221, then why bother going that commander? It's a deadslot and I always think commanders feel worse if something isn't an option, but a BAD option.

If a tank has a sight range of 35, and it gives 45 range that's still not that much. I think around 50+ is the sight range that turns out really good. Otherwise you can barely see an MG but not much else and if you want sight you're better off with units that have stealth/scout way better since you aren't putting the tank in danger.

Also I dare someone to try calling that tank commander arty on AT guns. Not only do you have to be somewhat pointblank, but it takes longer then normal artillery to land, takes a good 8 seconds. It's a weird argument that a basic LMG upgrade competes with what should be a highlight feature of a commander.

The Sturmtiger I think becomes an interesting unit at vet 1. The grenade launchers cause a constant threat and force enemy targets to move and I think that's where the ST shines. Forcing your opponent to constantly reposition in and out of cover. The issue is that the sturmtiger shot is inconsistent and just doesn't wipe or hit properly. Wheras the Avre is consistent and hits the target everytime and wipes.
13 May 2021, 22:26 PM
#648
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 539





Also I dare someone to try calling that tank commander arty on AT guns. Not only do you have to be somewhat pointblank, but it takes longer then normal artillery to land, takes a good 8 seconds. It's a weird argument that a basic LMG upgrade competes with what should be a highlight feature of a commander.


If a model drops and the gun stops getting dragged in the middle of the smoke there's an extremely high likelihood of it being caught out and destroyed. Also forces a reposition
MMX
14 May 2021, 08:45 AM
#649
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1



That information about stuart killing/greater AOE is very informative. Though I feel like if you were going to kill a stuart you'd of done so because it was low and you were chasing. I can see instances where a stuart is caught out against a P4 and you want to kill it fast and thats when the HEAT shells would be good. I'd be ok with the ability not being universally useful if the other commander traits made up for it.

My issue is if you don't get a 221, then why bother going that commander? It's a deadslot and I always think commanders feel worse if something isn't an option, but a BAD option.

If a tank has a sight range of 35, and it gives 45 range that's still not that much. I think around 50+ is the sight range that turns out really good. Otherwise you can barely see an MG but not much else and if you want sight you're better off with units that have stealth/scout way better since you aren't putting the tank in danger.

Also I dare someone to try calling that tank commander arty on AT guns. Not only do you have to be somewhat pointblank, but it takes longer then normal artillery to land, takes a good 8 seconds. It's a weird argument that a basic LMG upgrade competes with what should be a highlight feature of a commander.

The Sturmtiger I think becomes an interesting unit at vet 1. The grenade launchers cause a constant threat and force enemy targets to move and I think that's where the ST shines. Forcing your opponent to constantly reposition in and out of cover. The issue is that the sturmtiger shot is inconsistent and just doesn't wipe or hit properly. Wheras the Avre is consistent and hits the target everytime and wipes.


I'm generally convinced that not all commander slots always need to be useful for a specific build but can instead also be valuable by simply providing options (think of Airborne's MG and AT-gun drop, for instance, or the Opel Blitz in Firestorm). However, that doesn't really apply for the 221 as it more or less pigeonholes you into going Battlegroup due to the steep fuel cost, especially for the 223 upgrade. So while the unit itself is pretty good IMHO i can understand the frustration that it effectively locks out teching options rather than to create ones.

Concerning the Panzer Commander, the +10 sight range may not turn the Tank into a recon vehicle but it effectively allows you to use it without spotting support, such as when flanking or hunting down wounded tanks or rocket arty. The greater vision also means you're much more likely to get the first shot off against enemy armor, which can make the difference between winning and losing a fight. It also helps against running into snare-range by accident when attack-moving through the map, as well as letting you see a potential AT-gun ambush from decently farther away.
Also the off-map may be rather crappy and take ages to come down, but it's not so much about actually killing AT guns with it than forcing them to move OR get killed. For a mere click you'll force that little bit of extra micro tax on your opponent that might be lacking elsewhere in return, plus moving the AT gun(s) will often take them out of the fight for long enough to overwhelm them or get out of their firing arc.

Is all that worth passing on the pintle MG? Maybe not always but in many cases I'd argue it is. After all the Panzer Commander upgrade wasn't removed from the OKW Tiger for no good reason a couple of patches ago.

As far as the Sturmtiger goes, I agree that the Vet 1 grenade launcher is pretty decent. I also feel the changes to projectile speed/arc further made it quite a lot more reliable, at least as far as I can tell from my limited testing. Not sure if that'll be enough to make the ST more competitive, but it sure is a step into the right direction.
19 May 2021, 17:35 PM
#650
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2

I know the patch is basically done, but:
Why is the Panzer Commander in two doctrines that offer a special tank, but none of them gets the ability?
19 May 2021, 18:06 PM
#651
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 480

I know the patch is basically done, but:
Why is the Panzer Commander in two doctrines that offer a special tank, but none of them gets the ability?


wasn't that because it made the Tiger an all-purpose god? AT guns would be forced to move, and then get shot due to arti.
19 May 2021, 18:16 PM
#652
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

wasn't that because it made the Tiger an all-purpose god? AT guns would be forced to move, and then get shot due to arti.


This, and the Sturmtiger doesn't have any animations for it. And as I've said before, the real heavy that comes with Elite Armor is the fully pimped Tiger II, which can make excellent use of the Panzer Commander as it gives it self spotting by default (45 sight for 45 range main gun) and up to 68 sight range with Spearhead on.
Pip
19 May 2021, 18:21 PM
#653
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1546



This, and the Sturmtiger doesn't have any animations for it. And as I've said before, the real heavy that comes with Elite Armor is the fully pimped Tiger II, which can make excellent use of the Panzer Commander as it gives up to 68 sight range with Spearhead on.


I assume there's still no chance of the Sturmtiger being moved to a doctrine that might actually benefit from it (Whatever that might be), and being replaced in EA with something a little more synergistic, though? I get that there's this idea that "Not every ability needs to be good", but I'm not sure that EA would be OP with a "real" fifth ability/unit.
19 May 2021, 19:57 PM
#654
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2

Alright then, makes sense. I just found it a bit of a shame that the doctrines incentivise you to spend ~20 POP into a tank that can't make use of it.
19 May 2021, 21:08 PM
#655
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

I know the patch is basically done, but:
Why is the Panzer Commander in two doctrines that offer a special tank, but none of them gets the ability?


Wait what do you mean it's done?

Didn't they say it was crashing all of the time or something or was it just an excuse to do internal testing instead of releasing it to the public for more feedback and suggestions?
19 May 2021, 21:17 PM
#656
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2



Wait what do you mean it's done?

Didn't they say it was crashing all of the time or something or was it just an excuse to do internal testing instead of releasing it to the public for more feedback and suggestions?

That's how I remember Sanders saying it 2 weeks ago or so. But Sturmpanther said the patch is being released after ML5 is over two days ago. There will be no new updates on the patch
20 May 2021, 21:19 PM
#657
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 130



Wait what do you mean it's done?

Didn't they say it was crashing all of the time or something or was it just an excuse to do internal testing instead of releasing it to the public for more feedback and suggestions?

Yeah strumpanther responded to me in the shout it out thingy that the update would be dropping after ML5 and there would be no more test versions. Kind of wish we had 1 more update because there was a couple things I think still needed addressing but this is what we're seemingly going to get.
22 May 2021, 18:36 PM
#658
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 473

jump backJump back to quoted post12 May 2021, 20:24 PMGeblobt


Instead of active dmg and penetration i would rather have passive penetration (and maybe accuracy). Or maybe 2 different modes similar to the Sherman, so i can choose between normal and heat shells (something like slower reload and better dmg/penetration). It just feels awful to press heatshells-> miss 1 shot and bounce the other one. Nice impact lol.



Heatshells are amazing when it works but from my experience it will usually miss or hit a random fence or something else on the ground instead of actually hitting the target.

Also it would be nice having the ability to toggle between firemodes like the sherman but for things like the Puma it would basically be the default option so it wouldn't work well with that unit. For the P4 and King Tiger it could work as they have Anti-Infantry in their shots so you could balance it by disabling the AI for High Penetration and toggle between the two.



So previously there was some discussion on possibly buffing the SDKFZ 221 to make it a more useful vehicle. I think there were some reasonable points on both sides but I personally agree more that any major buffs to the vehicle's timing to power could be problematic when coming alongside the power spike OKW has in the mid game. However, I also agree the vehicle feels very meh even going just a minute or two past when it comes out. I think a buff could help it just needs to be the right one.

My suggestion is to possibly look into reworking the vet for this unit in order to make it more useful after it's combat abilities fall off.
This link has the current vet for the 221 and I want to propose some changes to it. I think the most notable thing is the AT mine buried so far in vet it may as well not exist. I want to redo the vet and shuffle things around.


Vet 1 - Unlocks the "Defensive Smoke" ability.
+10% accuracy.
-11,1% received accuracy.

Vet 2 - +30 additional health points.
+30% accuracy.

Vet 3 - Unlocks the "Riegel 43 Anti-Tank Mine" ability.

Vet 4 - +20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+20% ac/de-celeration.
+30% sight radius.

Vet 5 - -25% received damage while in "Lockdown Mode".
+4 armor

So these changes would do a couple things overall.
Vet 1 remains unchanged
Vet 2 would now give a notably health boost to make the 221 more resilient (it would have 270 health compared to 240)
Vet 3 unlocks the AT mine making it more realistic to be able to use this ability.
Vet 4 essentially got the other buffs that were removed from vet 2 and 3
Vet 5 would now make the 221 immune to small arms fire making it much more bulky and harder to kill as a reward for keeping it alive to vet all the way up.

In terms of new stuff for the vet you have a additional 10 health points added on and the added armor at vet 5. Otherwise this is just swapping around the various vet bonuses to activate in I would say is a more beneficial and useful way. Making it so at vet 3 the 221 gets the AT mine it sets a good point where the 221 can become a more support built vehicle as it plants mines and locks down areas as a 223.

I think this would be a good way overall to buff the 221 while not affecting that much of it's early timing while still making it better and worthwhile to keep around even later into the game.

If a change like this is done I also hope we could see the 221 go into the Scavenge doctrine also in place of infiltration grenades. I think the 221 fits very well there alongside the new volk repair kits and the whole theme of extra resources. The 223 would be a good way help rush out an ostwind, save munitions for a big 105mm strike, or even as a resource sink being able to plant those AT mines.



I feel like the Riegel AT Mine should just be standard with the unit once upgraded to the 223 similar to how Whermact has the Riegel on the Halftrack. After its window of opportunity is over the unit becomes useless as its extremely difficult to gain veterancy on and ends up becoming a Fuel/Ammo Cache. I feel like this unit needs shared vet because its not going to hit vet 5 on its own. Would be interesting if it could gain veterancy the longer it is on a point securing resources though that would be hard to implement/balance.
23 May 2021, 01:44 AM
#659
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 130




I feel like the Riegel AT Mine should just be standard with the unit once upgraded to the 223 similar to how Whermact has the Riegel on the Halftrack. After its window of opportunity is over the unit becomes useless as its extremely difficult to gain veterancy on and ends up becoming a Fuel/Ammo Cache. I feel like this unit needs shared vet because its not going to hit vet 5 on its own. Would be interesting if it could gain veterancy the longer it is on a point securing resources though that would be hard to implement/balance.


If you wanted to make Riegel unlock with the 223 that could open the 221 to have more from it's vet.

Something like

Vet 1 - Unlocks the "Defensive Smoke" ability.
+10% accuracy.
-11,1% received accuracy.

Vet 2 - +4 Armor

Vet 3 - +30% accuracy.
+20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+20% ac/de-celeration.

Vet 4 - +20 Health
+30% sight radius.

Vet 5 - -25% received damage while in "Lockdown Mode".

This would make it so at Vet 2 the 221 becomes mostly immune to small arms fire by having almost the same armor as the Ostheer 222. That could be a massive improvement to the vehicle by being able to keep relevant when stronger units come out. It would still be quite weak to actual AT and vs other vehicles but it would make help to keep it relevant until you got it to a 223.
23 May 2021, 21:40 PM
#660
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

OKW tanks need better veterancy esp 4th and 5th. Crews acting like drunk teenagers having fun with their parents sedan... Combat blitz can be buffed or accuracy can be buffed or reaction time- aim time, something inculudes timing for fcks sake... Actually all okw needs some vet re-work.
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