Login

russian armor

Lefh Counter Barrage Controversy

PAGES (9)down
24 Mar 2021, 20:47 PM
#141
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682



And yes, it might target suboptimal points. A good player can do better barrages into the FOV. But the issue is that CB leads to having literally zero downtime. Even a good player will forget to use the barrage ability for some time after it becomes available again. CB will fire without fail, because in team games there are 1-2 barrages per minute somewhere on the map. And while there might be differences at the very top tier level, CB level the skill gap between "bad" and "average" players, simply because micro and game knowledge are limited resources here. 5 okay barrages are as good as 4 good ones, especially if I don't need to think about this unit anymore.


I use lefhs fairly often and I've had good players adjust to my cb and barrage right outside of it's range. It can also be left on cb to waste if this isn't caught
24 Mar 2021, 20:57 PM
#142
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359


It will randomly target an indirect fire unit. That could be a Katyusha backing away at the other side of the map or a lone mortar. Could be a ZiS firing a barrage on the frontline. That's fine, but I would rather manually target my barrage and hit concentrated enemy positions and inflict more damage. It only takes a low amount of micro and the damage potential is significantly higher in most cases.



Both of those units had their effectiveness moved from auto fire to the player targeted barrage. Isn't that exactly what you are advocating for the LeFH?


Yeah exactly. Note "barrage" not "counter-barrage". I'm asking you to implement things youve said evenly to other units. Are you really asking me a redundant rhetorical question when yes thats exactly what I'm doing?
24 Mar 2021, 22:29 PM
#143
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



I like where youre going with this but what if we invert it. Make COH2 units have one ability you click and now the unit is on auto-target and auto-move. Sure, micro is a hallmark of RTSs but having to pan around the map and press two or three buttons is just so much harder than clicking and forgetting. I would like to see more of that. Maybe a button I can press that makes my sherman auto toggle AI shells when in range of them so I don't really have to spend any attention on it. Shouldn't have to tbh.


You know you can use AI's in singleplayer etc. right? That can be you playing! No need to do everything yourself!

I'd love it if we could get some AI developers to make bots like they did with starcraft and dota, and I'm sure other people would love to play against those bots also. Too bad people like you will chase them off with toxic whining.
25 Mar 2021, 01:33 AM
#144
avatar of RintFosk

Posts: 56

Hi there. I've just come across this thread. This is my thought process with the LeFH's ability to track


And thank you for posting my test video to bring light onto the issue my friends and I discovered. Appreciate it. I welcome a discussion.

An encounter with the tracking in a live game

British Counter Battery to compare

The shell scatter as requested to test by /u/gtacleveland


Thank you for joining and bringing more materials for the discussion.

I hope every participant in this post can spare some time to review them.

Hope you all having a good day. :)
25 Mar 2021, 02:35 AM
#145
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Hi there. I've just come across this thread. This is my thought process with the LeFH's ability to track


And thank you for posting my test video to bring light onto the issue my friends and I discovered. Appreciate it. I welcome a discussion.

An encounter with the tracking in a live game

British Counter Battery to compare

The shell scatter as requested to test by /u/gtacleveland

I think what's important to remeber as that Lefh destroyed your Katy after it fired and retreated a ways behind into the fog of war is that a player could have done that exact same thing with but 3 clicks from rotation towards the Katy, to guessing exactly to where you would retreat it, in the fog of war. 3 clicks elsewhere. that's all the enemy gained as they destroyed your 85 fuel unit undoubtedly without even knowing they did it.
25 Mar 2021, 10:57 AM
#146
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2


I don't see the point here though. I'm saying it was always dumb, so yeah nothing needed to happen in the last 8 years?

I think almost all loiter abilities that attack are hilariously OP still, and they used to be even worse. Does the fact that they haven't gotten better recently make them not OP? No, not really

The thing that makes those abilities OP imo is very similar to CB (though loiters are much worse imo): A computer is doing a bunch of work for you

Again, my whole point was that people should relax and put it back into perspective. The way this discussion went two pages ago was way overblown.

Because what happened was that a bug was discovered that can basically not be abused, is rarely triggered and that was therefore so unnoticeable that it got discovered 8 years after release. So the discussion that we have here is no different from one that we had months ago. The discovery of this bug is good, but in the end does not change the performance of CB. And that's what people should discuss about (it now has moved more to this topic thanksfully): CB itself, or this bug itself. But in the end this bug is mostly decoupled from the balance of CB since it occurs rarely.
25 Mar 2021, 11:01 AM
#147
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2



Yeah exactly. Note "barrage" not "counter-barrage". I'm asking you to implement things youve said evenly to other units. Are you really asking me a redundant rhetorical question when yes thats exactly what I'm doing?

???
The units you are referring to have had their barrages buffed to require more manual input.

But that would lead too far offtopic now, this can be better discussed in one of the patch threads.
25 Mar 2021, 12:37 PM
#148
avatar of Tea2theBag

Posts: 10

Hi again. I would just like to share my opinions on this matter as reddit is a bit overwhelming at times.

The possible bug of the tracking should be fixed regardless of how realistic or unrealistic it is in a live game. It's not okay. Abusable? Probably not. Unintended and a little silly. Absolutely.

How I would change counter battery.

  • Priority is to give it an activatable ability like the UKF one. Displaying it's cooldown (Maybe increase the cooldown?) and subsequently putting barrage on cooldown with a small ammo cost.
  • Secondary/optional Reduce the damage. As I believe CB does more? (Unconfirmed) Reduce the accuracy. Again as I believe it has a fog of war accuracy bonus? (Unconfirmed) Start the cooldown from when it ends firing and not from when it begins (Unconfirmed)

    Counter Battery remains in the game. The majority of the arguments against it (Including mine) are satisfied. It is still useful but requires resources and attention. That is the middle ground and I personally think that's fair and I would like to believe everyone agreeing with myself and others about it would also agree with this.

    I can't honestly see a logical reason as to why this would not be okay.

    Thank you again for sharing my videos and bringing up this discussion. Hope everyone is well.
25 Mar 2021, 15:32 PM
#149
avatar of R_143

Posts: 9

I don't see why a soft nerf to CB to Brit CB really helps an ability that not OP nor UP in its own right. Making similar to Brit CB not making any sense because, unlike Brit CB, you paid your MP, FU, and Pop for it while Brit CB available without any cost, doesn't have to build, and can't get bomb, might as well not using that ability and save you some Muni and increased your APM by 3. while it was a bit questionable ability when it was designed, it by far not the most OP thing that people really claim to be (More of a general hated toward indirect fire in the first place). Best option is to rework/replace it with something else of a change is needed. IMO, it fine for 8 years, it fine for another until we have the best solution
25 Mar 2021, 18:21 PM
#150
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Again, my whole point was that people should relax and put it back into perspective. The way this discussion went two pages ago was way overblown.

Because what happened was that a bug was discovered that can basically not be abused, is rarely triggered and that was therefore so unnoticeable that it got discovered 8 years after release. So the discussion that we have here is no different from one that we had months ago. The discovery of this bug is good, but in the end does not change the performance of CB. And that's what people should discuss about (it now has moved more to this topic thanksfully): CB itself, or this bug itself. But in the end this bug is mostly decoupled from the balance of CB since it occurs rarely.

Yeah I agree with all of that. Theres some retroactive anger being applied with this bug and that's silly

I was trying to avoid that, cause it's not really related to my main thoughts on the ability
25 Mar 2021, 21:08 PM
#151
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


People here are getting almost outraged if Sanders or someone else says that tracking is only an issue in very rare circumstances and then instantly insinuate that stating this equals defending it and most of all defending the whole CB itself. It's just nuts.

id say the "people making out sander is defending it" comes more from the repeated "it only saves 3 clicks" bit than the tracking. the tracking makes the claim even more Ludacris, but the claim itself shows as an apathy to the effects being able to remove enemy indirect without any work at all and greatly underplays the impact that being able to kill something like a katy or mortar or pak howi or mortar HT or zis has. without any input from the player. at all.

Back to topic, but I can only say what I have already said before:
The thread started out as purely focusing on the tracking. It then widened a bit to CB in general which is fine by me. But many here start mixing both issues into one another to somehow "prove" their point.

Most Allied units barrage for quite some time. I have not tested it in game, but judging from what Elchino wrote they will usually be counter barraged during their barrage or at the end of it. And assuming that the barrage finishes and the Katy/... starts moving before the LeFH is set up, there is a decent chance that the Katy will be in the cone half way, so the LeFH barrages an empty spot half way on the map. If your vehicle is still in range at this time. There's a lot of conditions and in most circumstances, shift queueing your unit back to base will do exactly what is should do.

thats it though, it doesnt JUST proc on katys. if you try to dispense smoke, itll get ya. if your mortar autofires, itll get ya. i dont think its reasonable to retreat your mortar every time it fires a smoke shell (cant do the whole barrage or itll get ya). forgot about a mortar and the enemy pushes near it? hope to hell it doesnt set up and fire a single shell at the enemy because if it did it may well be gone..

Is it still possible that you drive your Katy back to base to be barraged there? Yes, but rarely.
Is this whole tracking behaviour stupid? Absolutely.
Is it worth the drama? Nope.

its absolutely worth the drama because it can change the outcome of a game entirely. if i recall right the elephant and JT had their damage reduced so they couldn't 2 tap tanks from a mile away if they fell in their sights, yet this is capable of deleting units without them even r4evealing themselves and it can happen anywhere on the map. and running away isn't even a guarantee!

This behaviour has only been discovered just now. But suddenly this is used to state that CB is OP because it tracked (no personal statement of mine on CB intended here). But this OPness went unnoticed for years, so it probably is not as a huge deal as some make it out to be.

when it came tom light matters not, for a long time people didnt think the CB was worth it because it stopped the lefh from barraging and *ahem* you could just do the same thing with only 3 clicks anwyays. tha has proven to not be so and thusly its being blown properly into proportion. a game based on micro and unit preservation that can delete units without any micro deserves all the attention it can get until its changed.

So to sum it up:
Tracking is very stupid, CB a bit stupid, LeFH ability could use a redesign and all of this is blown out of proportion.

again i disagree. we need to make a stink about it so that it DEOS get cahnged and we need to show how broken it is or we might end up with a 5 fuel increase and 1 less shell on CB as a token "shut up now" nerf, especially if sanders view that its only saving a few clicks holds sway on the balance team. knocking off full health units with no effort is a problem, regardless of how. doing so even after counter measures are taken on those that can still doesnt protect you against a no micro counter attack is worth blowing up.
25 Mar 2021, 21:30 PM
#152
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682

We've come full circle. Years of hate on indirect and now the bandwagon is hating something that punishes indirect.
25 Mar 2021, 21:32 PM
#153
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2


1) Please see this in the context of the posts I made afterwards. I was criticizing that the discussion was blown out of proportion as if a new bug was introduced to this ability. The discovery of the bug has changed nothing about the performance, regardless on the individual opinion about CB. However for half the paragraph you are mixing up the general design of CB with the tracking behaviour.

2) I don't understand your point. All of my arguments are directed towards the tracking behaviour. CB triggering on smoke or triggering before an Allied arty unit will usually drive away is exactly as intended. That is a issue with the general CB design, but my point here stands: The tracking behaviour probably is a rarely occuring and barely exploitable event in an ingame situation and has only little effect on the actual balance of CB.

3) Alright, then please elaborate how the Ele/JT always two-shotting mediums is related to CB having a rare weird bug that influences every Xth game. Again: With all the conditions necessary to CB to track a unit for so long that it triggers only as the unit stands still and is still within range, it is probably a rare occurance. This problem has in no way the same magnitude as an Elefant reliably two shotting any medium.

4) Again you mix up the tracking and CB in general.

5) Yes, make some noise against CB if you so please. I fully support a rework. But since this paragraph again does not differentiate between CB and the tracking, I assume either you have misunderstood the point of my post or I have phrased myself unclearly. But all my points are directed towards the tracking and that is such a minor point because of rarity. If we discuss about a rebalance or replacement of CB, the tracking is not a strong argument (unless you can show that it occurs more regularly than I assume).
25 Mar 2021, 21:56 PM
#154
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2021, 21:30 PMKoRneY
We've come full circle. Years of hate on indirect and now the bandwagon is hating something that punishes indirect.

The cause is still indirect you know...
25 Mar 2021, 23:27 PM
#155
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



as i said, they are linked. the tracking is just the icing on the shit sundae that is CB. it in itself might not be exploitable, but it makes something that already IS even stronger by removing the "counter" we thought we had. since CB has been in discussion and we have had a member of the balance team brushing it off as simply a micro saver (which it is very much more than) i feel its extra important to emphasis that CB, especially in light of the tracking bug, is MUCH more than that.

the elefant bit was relating how, even much more expensive units with much less range shouldnt be knocking out units with no counter play, even with double the shots required. its important as its establishing precedent.
and its not a rare bug
your criteria are that you have to stand still and be in range, those are more than easy to fulfill, especially since due to game mechanics you as an allied player are not able to see the area that a LeFH covers. just one in the past (pre this bug) assumed we were moving out of range of the ability in the first place. retreating to your base is not an acceptable solution, and in some maps its not solution at all.

the relation is that and the CB is that there is precedent established to say minimal counterplay is bad. being able to nuke expensive units when in range and requiring multiple hits was bad, but near infinite range and the potential to OHK is debatable...

we cant divorce CB and the bug because that implies that one is ok with the other and that is not so. CB is broke, and the bug is just extra.
26 Mar 2021, 00:24 AM
#156
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2

...

I agree with your sentiment about CB, but you are missing the point in quoting me. What I tried to make clear to you is that the post you were quoting is referring to the tracking behaviour only, not CB itself. So please if you use this post as a basis for response, then refer only to the tracking as well because that is the main (only?) thing I was referring to. I am also not connected to Sanders or the balance team at all, and again you are referring to CB in general which I tell you now for the third time was not my point at all.

For all we can assume the tracking is difficult to abuse and an overall rare event. Please provide some reasoning why you think this occurs so often. My reasoning is that in almost all cases Allied barrages fire for so long that the LeFH will turn and CB trigger before the unit has left the cone. And even less likely be back in base.

The Elefant is not related. Even at 320 damage, it was working as intended. It is just stupid design. The tracking is not working as intended. The Elefant is - if at all - related to CB itself, which again was not the focus of my post.

And one note repeating what I already said: The tracking does not make CB stronger in a sense that CB is suddenly stronger this week in contrast to pre patch or before. The feeling of strength of CB that you get when using or receiving it is exactly the same. It's more akin to finding out the Riflemen nade had increased damage on every 100+th nade thrown. It were a stupid bug that should not happen in the first place. Yet having this knowledge did not make the nade suddenly stronger. If the ability is seen as too strong it is not due to something bugging out once every blue moon (slight exaggeration for clarity). If the ability is seen as overall bad design it is also not due to something bugging out once every blue moon. The ability had the same strength before and after gaining knowledge of the bug.

Divorcing CB and the tracking bug implies no status on either of these.
26 Mar 2021, 02:27 AM
#157
avatar of LMAO

Posts: 163

Seems like many people still want to nerf a stationary easily killed unit even more. Change counterbarrage to smoke , I'll bet the haters will be even more outraged as it will smoke any area you want for a long time and will be very very strong. How about change Lefh to Hummel Self-Propelled Artillery and see them cry.
26 Mar 2021, 04:00 AM
#158
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179

The Gren hate is just weird.

They are cheap as dirt, get access to all of their kit without side tech, and have super low vet requirements. I legit don't understand how anyone can complain about them after the T4 and formation buffs in the last 2 patches.
26 Mar 2021, 04:30 AM
#159
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

The Gren hate is just weird.

They are cheap as dirt, get access to all of their kit without side tech, and have super low vet requirements. I legit don't understand how anyone can complain about them after the T4 and formation buffs in the last 2 patches.

sir, this is about Lefh, not Gren.
About gren, they are fine. But people want them become Western Faction without losing any advangate ( best support weapon, best tier 4 unit, strong all wrong tools for every timeline). VSL before buff is what they want.
26 Mar 2021, 13:34 PM
#160
avatar of Tea2theBag

Posts: 10


For all we can assume the tracking is difficult to abuse and an overall rare event. Please provide some reasoning why you think this occurs so often.


Tracking should be removed. Period.

If it's "not a problem, because it's a rare occurrence" then it's not a problem for it to be removed.

If it is a problem. Keeping it in the game IS a problem.

Can anyone really disagree with that?

Why I think this appears often. I have two videos. One showing a live game where this happened and the second showcasing a entirely possible live scenario. Also just from playing the game and being a bit dumbfounded as to why my units were being attacked AFTER I moved them. And on top of that countless replies of other players experiencing the same. Bearing in mind. This also applies to a retreating mortar team. An example would be retreating to a forward HQ. The leFH will track that mortar team back to the HQ.

My reasoning is that in almost all cases Allied barrages fire for so long that the LeFH will turn and CB trigger before the unit has left the cone.


I cancel my barrages all the time. Missing my shot, seeing an enemy on it's way, miss click, start the cooldown sooner etc.

I don't feel that "what usually happens anyway is X" is a valid reasoning for not fixing a possible bug.

PAGES (9)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

482 users are online: 2 members and 480 guests
Esxile, donofsandiego
17 posts in the last 24h
45 posts in the last week
99 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44645
Welcome our newest member, otorusqtwk
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM