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My respond to the accusations

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19 Mar 2021, 06:18 AM
#141
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8125 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2021, 00:16 AMPorygon
I see no sense of banning at the first point, so I bought a knife, I borrowed it to a murderer, the murderer killed someone, now I am guilty? WTF


You are not guilty of murder unless you knew before hand the reason why it was borrowed. Change knife for gun at now it looks way worse.

If you think this logic is stupid, let me remind you that this is how other e-sports organizations handle issues.
For ex: if you ever have ANY VAC ban linked to any account related to yours, you will never be able to participate in any CS Major. Look for Jamppi case (he is suing Valve), where he bought some CS GO accounts for a lan party when he was like 14 years old, and because one of his friends later cheated, he can't participate in any tournament.


I am open minded, that's why I accept that we each have our own separate and personal opinions to which we're all entitled to.

I'm just saying my opinion on it because honestly with a few exceptions of like for example SC2 every game that has RNG heavily involved in to with a competitive scene where there's money on the line has been a colossal failure from what I've noticed and this is just another recent example of that.

Also from what I understand Poker is a game specifically made to involve money so...

I mean no other game from my understanding at least is designed around betting, Chess, Farming Simulator and so forth are all meant for entertainment and again in my opinion at least it's fine to be competitive about it, if you wish so, however when involving money the stakes are higher and thus the chance of people being desperate to win and thus do something against the rules and so forth in order to win also increases exponentially and becomes pretty much unavoidable.

So again just to sum up my thoughts in a few words, if people wish to be competitive in games meant for entertainment that's fine and that's their own choice, however if they still wish to be competitive with money involved in a heavily RNG dependent game, then again that's still their own choice to do so but it has a very high chance of ending badly because someone will probably want to win at all costs, quite literally.


It's fine to give your opinion but i think you are confusing factors. RNG and competitiveness. It's human nature that people will sometimes go around rules to trump over others. That applies to all aspects of life. You don't need money for that to be the case, it just adds another reason/factor into the equation.


Not sure what you mean by "colossal" failure. Popularity is mostly based around the number of people playing/watching them. You can't compare a game like SC2 which probable have 50/100 times more active players, more if we consider those who don't play it at all and just watch.

RNG in different degrees appear in many games. AOE2/WC3 have it. You skipped the fact that things like Magic or HS exist. King of the hill FPS have randomized loot. FIFA Ultimate team is a thing (puke). Pokemon is a thing. War Thunder/World of tanks.

...


Word of wisdom. You don't improve things by burning bridges with people.


A_E
19 Mar 2021, 09:49 AM
#142
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 6

A quick word to everyone on this issue, I've had a sleep on it now, and am going to post the announcement from Discord once more.

A_E — 03/17/2021
@everyone Two bans, and three apologies

ML BANS

Seeking - For playing on the Deadbolt account after an initial one tourney ban for boosting on 29th of Jan, Seeking will be temp banned from ML for one year until 1st March 2022. I feel it's in our best interests to have a hard line on this account sharing due to Deadbolt being shown to be map hacking.

Seeking is not being perma-banned for map hacking as there is no 'smoking gun' evidence that can't be disputed as "game sense" etc. It has clearly been shown that the 100% obvious map hacking was done whist it was Deadbolt playing. Should firm evidence of map hacking be found of Seeking in the future however, obviously this will be revisited.

Deadbolt - (Seeking's irl uncle) has been shown to be using hacks in replays that are 100% obvious he is of course therefore banned.

APOLOGIES

I apologise to Seeking that all attempts were made to not handle this privately; in hindsight they should have been. I selfishly protected myself by ensuring speculation was minimised through transparency but created an unfair process. I'm a firm believer in 'innocent until proven guilty' therefore Seeking shouldn't be known as a map hacker. I will be making a video on this as it’s only fair that it's given equal platform.

I apologise to ML players that the procedures in the ML are not robust enough to offer a due process when evidence is reported, we're offering real money to play for here so I feel it's time to get real and iron out our processes and procedures. No point saying "but we're an amateur league" when we're offering real money. The @Referees and I will be working hard to write and vote on procedures that will protect us all in the future.

I apologise to the community that I rushed this out and brought this to everyone's attention thinking it was conclusive, however it's now time to deal only with facts and act based on facts.


I stand by this action 100%, I think Seeking playing on an account of a player that has now shown to be using map hacks in and around the build up to tournaments is something that in other gaming communities wouldn't have even been given a second look...

If anything we've been very lenient here, and tbh I even had it in the back of my mind that if Seeking and I talked it through it could have been less than a year ban. I'm not just saying this to look good now, it did genuinely occur to me.

Therefore I don't think the person that leaked the private PMs out of context to Seeking has helped this situation, stupid initial emotional reactions are not intended to be viewed publicly as an official response and I think it made Seeking feel like he had "an ace" to play, this closed down channels of communication at a vital moment. Very unfortunate.
19 Mar 2021, 09:56 AM
#143
avatar of berkeley

Posts: 23

"Deadbolt = Satup
Source: dude trust me"
A_E
19 Mar 2021, 09:58 AM
#144
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 6

"Deadbolt = Satup
Source: dude trust me"


Source: the 2v2 partners of Deadbolt, and Deadbolt himself https://www.coh2.org/replay/107725/top-55-at-using-maphack-keep-looking-into-fow/page/2#post_id855891
19 Mar 2021, 10:06 AM
#145
avatar of berkeley

Posts: 23

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2021, 09:58 AMA_E


Source: the 2v2 partners of Deadbolt, and Deadbolt himself https://www.coh2.org/replay/107725/top-55-at-using-maphack-keep-looking-into-fow/page/2#post_id855891


"I've looked at your replay now and then, I see Not where he supposedly cheats, "

"so I'm just minute 4 he hears your dare and had motor damage in the fog at what y"

"i follow his "

he says "he/his" when he talks about satup. Deadbolt never confirmed he is actually satup.
Deadbolt speaks a broken english.
Also this "i am not hacking why i not banned from relic?? relic say its not obvios but its ok for me" does not confirm he is hacking either.
A_E
19 Mar 2021, 10:12 AM
#146
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 6



"I've looked at your replay now and then, I see Not where he supposedly cheats, "

"so I'm just minute 4 he hears your dare and had motor damage in the fog at what y"

"i follow his "

he says "he/his" when he talks about satup. Deadbolt never confirmed he is actually satup.
Deadbolt speaks a broken english.
Also this "i am not hacking why i not banned from relic?? relic say its not obvios but its ok for me" does not confirm he is hacking either.


It's OK everyone the glove doesn't fit!
19 Mar 2021, 11:27 AM
#147
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2728


If you think this logic is stupid, let me remind you that this is how other e-sports organizations handle issues.
For ex: if you ever have ANY VAC ban linked to any account related to yours, you will never be able to participate in any CS Major. Look for Jamppi case (he is suing Valve), where he bought some CS GO accounts for a lan party when he was like 14 years old, and because one of his friends later cheated, he can't participate in any tournament.


This is nuts, yeah that guy should sue Valve.
19 Mar 2021, 11:40 AM
#148
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3017 | Subs: 2



Dude if you play TF2 you definitely do not represent the average COH2.ORG or coh2 player who is involved in this drama.

I think this basically explains the lack of understanding from your side.

i.e they (and I) are not casual players


Team Fortress 2 has a very active competitive player base, rather small, as with other games, that also often holds small to medium sized tournaments I would say.

The majority of the community however is of course casual and don't really care about the competitive scene of course.

And while yes I lack the experience of playing competitively anymore, I was only really competitive in CoH with the Panzer Elite back in the day when I actually had time and motivation for it after school, I've seen plenty of videos in which people lament ever even going into the competitive scene in the first place because at the beginning it's just some fun with friends or whatever but it quickly spirals out of control to a degree where it starts seriously affecting your life in a very negative way.

There was a very nice video that I watched a few months ago detailing such a story but sadly I can't find it right now but I wouldn't say that I entirely lack any understanding of it.



You are not guilty of murder unless you knew before hand the reason why it was borrowed. Change knife for gun at now it looks way worse.

If you think this logic is stupid, let me remind you that this is how other e-sports organizations handle issues.
For ex: if you ever have ANY VAC ban linked to any account related to yours, you will never be able to participate in any CS Major. Look for Jamppi case (he is suing Valve), where he bought some CS GO accounts for a lan party when he was like 14 years old, and because one of his friends later cheated, he can't participate in any tournament.



It's fine to give your opinion but i think you are confusing factors. RNG and competitiveness. It's human nature that people will sometimes go around rules to trump over others. That applies to all aspects of life. You don't need money for that to be the case, it just adds another reason/factor into the equation.


Not sure what you mean by "colossal" failure. Popularity is mostly based around the number of people playing/watching them. You can't compare a game like SC2 which probable have 50/100 times more active players, more if we consider those who don't play it at all and just watch.

RNG in different degrees appear in many games. AOE2/WC3 have it. You skipped the fact that things like Magic or HS exist. King of the hill FPS have randomized loot. FIFA Ultimate team is a thing (puke). Pokemon is a thing. War Thunder/World of tanks.



Word of wisdom. You don't improve things by burning bridges with people.




I'm not really confusing anything, like I said people can be competitive in anything really if they wish to do so.

My point is that the competitive scene is being taken much too seriously that ends up in drama like here due to the fact that the game is heavily RNG based, perhaps a bit unbalanced and again there's money involved which is an extra factor that ramps up the chance of someone wanting to win at all costs and so reverting to cheating in order to do so.

Starcraft 2 is a perfect example of a competitively focused game, it was built for it, that's why it has minimal balance issues and not to mention RNG.

It's almost impossible to say "Yeah you're lucky that my unit missed there and that's why you won that match" or whatever because everything is exactly calculated, most issues are from human error and not the game derping out or something.

And since you mentioned War Thunder I'm going to end it with a video talking about it's recent "esports ready" meme that itself had similar to CoH2 a few years ago:
19 Mar 2021, 17:02 PM
#149
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8125 | Subs: 2

...


You keep going back to human nature (people will cheat and drama is everywhere) and listing RNG as a big issue when it's not. When luck is a factor, skill comes from maximizing and capitalizing on those situations. If those games had 0 RNG, their issues would be the same.

I think you are ignoring that drama, cheating, maphacks, win trading, etc. didn't ever exist on SC at all. "Success" comes from a world wide pool of players wanting to play at the best possible level, content creators been given the tools to do their job while there's a demand/public for it which means sponsors will put money onto the game.

I've watched the video and the only thing i can rescue is that there might be some dissonance between expectations and reality.

I think you are trying to equalize all "e-sports" to be at the same level. Just like in real life, not all people who practice every sport can have millionaire contracts and dedicate their lives to it. Minor sports have people practice it as a more committed hobby while they might have other normal jobs and fight for sponsors in order to have more time to practice.
19 Mar 2021, 18:28 PM
#150
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3044 | Subs: 1


My point is that the competitive scene is being taken much too seriously that ends up in drama like here due to the fact that the game is heavily RNG based, perhaps a bit unbalanced and again there's money involved which is an extra factor that ramps up the chance of someone wanting to win at all costs and so reverting to cheating in order to do so.

"Too seriously" is entirely subjective. There's no substance to that claim whatsoever

I don't know why you're even talking about RNG like that matters. Real world sports have even more luck and chance, and there's WAY more money on the line there
20 Mar 2021, 17:22 PM
#151
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 455

People smurf and cheat all day, no wonder AE has to try hard to retain tourney integrity
20 Mar 2021, 18:30 PM
#152
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1178


but when a group of very experienced high skill players with impeccable reputation like luvnest, devm etc. come to the conclusion that they are not sure if he hacked, then dont ban him.
if they are sure that he did, ban him.
its as easy as that.


Code
I.

I agree with your statement.

The problem however is at what point there is "no reasonable doubt" that a player cheated.

1. How many high level players do you have to ask to have a solid basis?
2. And how many of them (what percentage) have to agree that the person cheated? Or do they even have to come to their conclusion in unison.


Code
II.

From what I can gather more than 20 respected community members were asked. That's a big enough sample size in my opinion.

And it seems most of those members came to the same conclusion. In my opinion we don't need an unanimous decision for that since that would render the whole process useless (someone is always going to be unsure). We aren't in criminal court here.


Code
III.

Now put yourself into A_Es shoes.

Relic isn't really capable of handeling the issue.

The integrity of your tournaments is at risk.

You gather/ provide evidence.

You ask a big sample size of the community to give their opinion.

The opinion is (mostly) clear.

And now you either have to act or risk that your tournaments might be compromised.

I wouldn't blame A_E for anything.
21 Mar 2021, 05:00 AM
#153
avatar of momo4sho
Senior Caster Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 464 | Subs: 1

It's just unfortunate that we have to still go through these things nearly 8 years into this beloved game of ours, but it is what it is.

I've been on a hiatus from coh2 for a bit of time now and last I remember seeking was associated with Creatifename, someone whom I would say I respect. For whatever reason, he now also associates with someone that has a very shaky reputation ( Kimbo). Something that doesn't do him ANY favors with situations like this.

At the end of the day, the tournament organizer/s get to make the final decision on the fate of players. If the decision to time/perma ban is that out of line then people can choose not to donate/view/support the tournaments. If there isnt definitive proof of him maphacking on the seeking account thats one thing, but if its 100% certain that he boosted another players account in order to influence seeding/obtain entry into the tournament then I think a time ban is completely justified. Account sharing for the purposes of gaining advantage/circumventing bans in a tournament fits the definition of cheating in my book. Kimbo did this in tightropes tournament and attempted to do it in mine and he was severly punished for it at the time.

The real question is if the deadbolt account is 100% proven to be maphacking. That would warrant several permanent bans.

On a side note. If part of the argument of discrediting the maphacking accusations was the selective clipping then why would you post snippets of conversations? Lost me there.

Anyways, I hope we can all learn from this...

22 Mar 2021, 21:39 PM
#154
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 254

Hi Seaking,

You are a outlier in the Soviet 1v1 ladder right now. Can you give us some tips on how to improve our Soviet 1v1 game so we can achieve the same results as you?



Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to achieve the same results.
22 Mar 2021, 21:46 PM
#155
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2282 | Subs: 4

Hi Seaking,

You are a outlier in the Soviet 1v1 ladder right now. Can you give us some tips on how to improve our Soviet 1v1 game so we can achieve the same results as you?



Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to achieve the same results.

Start a new account after playing for years and noobstomp your way through a small number of matches.
22 Mar 2021, 23:15 PM
#156
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 258

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 21:46 PMTobis

Start a new account after playing for years and noobstomp your way through a small number of matches.


A Account with about 3k games in arranged teams is new? ok then, guess i can sell my 8 years old keyboard as new.
22 Mar 2021, 23:18 PM
#157
avatar of borobadger

Posts: 183

Hi Seaking,

You are a outlier in the Soviet 1v1 ladder right now. Can you give us some tips on how to improve our Soviet 1v1 game so we can achieve the same results as you?



Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to achieve the same results.


Just get lots of practice on your uncle's account. :p
22 Mar 2021, 23:18 PM
#158
avatar of SturmTigerGaddafi
Benefactor 355

Posts: 753 | Subs: 3



ok then, guess i can sell my 8 years old keyboard as new.


How much? MVGame
23 Mar 2021, 13:11 PM
#159
avatar of Seeking

Posts: 56

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2021, 21:46 PMTobis

Start a new account after playing for years and noobstomp your way through a small number of matches.


Apparently my Account is new? :unsure:
23 Mar 2021, 13:22 PM
#160
avatar of Seeking

Posts: 56

Hi Seaking,

You are a outlier in the Soviet 1v1 ladder right now. Can you give us some tips on how to improve our Soviet 1v1 game so we can achieve the same results as you?



Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to achieve the same results.


If this is you then u need a looong way to ride and start to play other than 4's :lol:

http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561197992591758/standings
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