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Osttruppen Discussion and Feedback

15 Dec 2020, 08:40 AM
#21
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 710 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 08:07 AMSmartie


I really dont see any reason to move Assgrens behind t1; Assgrens in their current state are NOT over performing, there completely fine.
And I really doubt that it's a wise decision to do such drastic changes because of 1 op Unit (osttruppen) that is ONLY op in the least played game mode. Right now the 1v1 mode has taken all the team modes hostage.
If you decide to move Assgrens behind t1 then you also have to look at Pathfinders and other allied 0Cp call-in units.


The current change is the one that's drastic. It cripples all T1 skip strategies. Jibbers suggestion literally only affects the problematic units directly as opposed to changing the entire tech price distribution. Assgrens are absolutely overperforming. But tbh that's not even really relevant in the context of this suggestion because you could easily exclude Assgrens if you were convinced that they are balanced in their current state. Jibber only included them (presumably) because the current version also nerfs both Osttruppen and Assgrens.

And please just stop with the "it's unfair, the other side deserves a nerf too" line of argument.
15 Dec 2020, 09:13 AM
#24
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

I voted for call-in with T1 requirement.

I'd set it up as follows:
  • BP1 cost change reverted from 50 to 40 fuel, fuel cost moved back to T1.
  • Osttruppen and Assault Grenadiers require T1 built before they can be called in.
  • Assault Grenadier cost from 280 to 260 manpower.
  • Recharge times and everything else remains the same.

This has the most benefits and not many drawbacks:
  • 2 MG42 + 2 Pio builds and T1 with Osttruppen builds not affected (these are not considered problematic builds, nerfing these would just harm diversity, which is what more expensive Osttruppen / BP1 would do).
  • Good timing delay on MG42 + 3 Osttruppen builds (1:53 T1 vs 1:48 35sec 220mp vs 1:35 live). Also, most of the added cost is upfront and the Pioneers will be busy building T1 at the start (all add up to a less oppressive early game). MG42 + 3 Gren builds take 2:42 to field.
  • Panzergrenadiers and T2 delayed for Osttruppen and Assault Grenadier builds.
  • Wouldn't be just a straight up cost nerf to MG42 + 3 Osttruppen builds, but give access to earlier Faust and T1 units.

Question: Then what benefit would ost have exactly?? They would become cheaper and substantially worse grens.
15 Dec 2020, 10:20 AM
#26
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 07:03 AMVipper

Half of Ostheer problems are that they need to get T1 up to get an infatry out so moving Ostt and AG in T1 will simply kill these doctrines.


To clarify: they wouldn't be build from T1, just require T1 to be called in, so the first Osttruppen / AG squad would still arrive at the same time as live, because the recharge starts at the start of the game, not once T1 is built.
15 Dec 2020, 10:35 AM
#27
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 856 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 08:40 AMGiaA


The current change is the one that's drastic. It cripples all T1 skip strategies. Jibbers suggestion literally only affects the problematic units directly as opposed to changing the entire tech price distribution. Assgrens are absolutely overperforming. But tbh that's not even really relevant in the context of this suggestion because you could easily exclude Assgrens if you were convinced that they are balanced in their current state. Jibber only included them (presumably) because the current version also nerfs both Osttruppen and Assgrens.

And please just stop with the "it's unfair, the other side deserves a nerf too" line of argument.


Dude, you can discuss with with pro's and con's of Jibber's proposal. I have a result-oriented approach. If this proposal works out fine I'm the last one who complains.

But dont come up with this stupid elitist bullshit of "ohh youre ranked so low, you dont have no right to post here". The only thing that matters is the quality of the argument. Its completely irrelevant if the argument comes from a toplevel player, midlevel player or lowlevel player. And btw: Some proposals of highlevel players turned out to be quite bad. "Long building time for Luchs", cough.
Ah one last thing: I tested a lot of the balance mods in the past and gave constructive feedback to the balance team. I NEVER saw you spending time there. So stop patronizing me and focus on arguments. Ass grens are absoluty overperforming? LOL Show me the 2v2 tourney matches since the unit was buffed. You barely find games where Assgrens were used and dominated a match.


15 Dec 2020, 10:44 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



To clarify: they wouldn't be build from T1, just require T1 to be called in, so the first Osttruppen / AG squad would still arrive at the same time as live, because the recharge starts at the start of the game, not once T1 is built.

Thanks for the clarification I misunderstood.

So Ostheer not only will not have mainline infatry available from T0 as other faction have, but they will now not even access to Doctrinal T0 unit without T1.

That make little sense especially since some of the problems Ostheer actually have start with having their mainline infantry arriving the latest.

Moving them to HQ is a far better solution since their timing will be the same regardless of map.
15 Dec 2020, 10:47 AM
#29
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 10:44 AMVipper

So Ostheer not only will not have mainline infatry available from T0 as other faction have but they will now not even access to Doctrinal T0 unit with T1.

They were literally NEVER meant to.
That's why their T1 is so cheap and quick to build.

That make little sense especially since some of the problems Ostheer actually have start with having their mainline infantry arriving the latest.

That was fixed by having strongest HMG in game arrive first.

Moving them to HQ is a far better solution since their timing will be the same regardless of map.

Osttruppen are still call-in.
They just require T1 to be built in that suggestion.
15 Dec 2020, 10:51 AM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 10:47 AMKatitof

They were literally NEVER meant to.
That's why their T1 is so cheap and quick to build.


That was fixed by having strongest HMG in game arrive first.


Osttruppen are still call-in.
They just require T1 to be built in that suggestion.

I suggest you at least try to understand before responding.

If you really having trouble understanding let me explain this for you:
Call in infantry come from outside the map and not the base building. That makes their arrival map related.

This is of little importance for CP1/2/3 infatry but it crucial for CP 0 infatry even more so for Ostt whose saving grace is their caping power.
15 Dec 2020, 11:03 AM
#32
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

I am wondering: What argument is against just increasing the cool down? The issue with Osttruppen is that they are too strong early game due to high map presence and binding more valuable units. Just being unable to push them out earlier would reduce the benefit of map presence.



jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 10:44 AMVipper

So Ostheer not only will not have mainline infatry available from T0 as other faction have but they will now not even access to Doctrinal T0 unit with T1.

That make little sense especially since some of the problems Ostheer actually have start with having their mainline infantry arriving the latest.

Moving them to HQ is a far better solution since their timing will be the same regardless of map.

Ostheer teching is barely comparable to teching of any other faction. "Faction X has this, faction Y needs it too" barely works here.
15 Dec 2020, 11:34 AM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Ostheer teching is barely comparable to teching of any other faction. "Faction X has this, faction Y needs it too" barely works here.

This is irrelevant to teching argument. Ostheer's mainline infatry arrive later than all other faction. That is simple fact.

The end result is that when the move for the first engagement they are in worse position although their are defensive infatry.

That is one of the reasons Ostt are even worth while, they allow Ostheer to hold ground early.
15 Dec 2020, 11:35 AM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 11:34 AMVipper

This is irrelevant to teching argument. Ostheer's mainline infatry arrive later than all other faction. That is simple fact.

Its meant to and balanced around it.
That's a simple fact.

The end result is that when the move for the first engagement they are in worse position although their are defensive infatry.

This is why HMG42 is T0, that's a simple fact.

If you want to play mainline spam faction, ost is not it, that's also a simple fact.
15 Dec 2020, 11:36 AM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 11:35 AMKatitof

Its meant to and balanced around it.
That's a simple fact.


This is why HMG42 is T0, that's a simple fact.

Nope it is not balanced.

If it was Ostheer player would not have to playing only commander that allow them to skip grenadiers.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 11:35 AMKatitof

If you want to play mainline spam faction, ost is not it, that's also a simple fact.

Once more, these feedback threads are not about what I want it about improving the game. That is also simply fact that you have fail to understand so far.
15 Dec 2020, 11:53 AM
#36
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

I voted requires T1, so that things keep unique to the faction, just with a small delay. Alternatively, increasing cooldown would work too (without increasing cost), as it does not interrupt special builds around the commander.

I'm a heavy OST player and I like the unique flair from the faction that things are timed differently, yet balanced around that. I rather not have these changed just because people don't like the uniqueness of OST or they don't seem to understand the faction. These ideas of changes to make everything perfectly balanced and symmetrical kills the game slowly and shows bad game design knowledge. Don't make OST the new OKW or OKW the new OST.

15 Dec 2020, 11:57 AM
#37
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

voted for t1 too but this is a 1v1 only issue, ostruppen are terrible in team games. But has the mod team realised that ppl are crutching on ostruppen? and that grens are underperforming
15 Dec 2020, 11:58 AM
#38
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 11:57 AMAlphrum
voted for t1 too but this is a 1v1 only issue, ostruppen are terrible in team games. But has the mod team realised that ppl are crutching on ostruppen? and that grens are underperforming


It is Grens that are underperforming, as simple as that. They should make them more attractive instead of nerfing everything; i would like to see Ostroops require more time before they hit the field, which isn't much of a nerf, just a timing change. It wouldn't solve problems like light LV rush, but at least open different doors for strategies.
15 Dec 2020, 12:03 PM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 11:36 AMVipper

Nope it is not balanced.

Nothing ever is in eyes of a bad player.

If it was Ostheer player would not have to playing only commander that allow them to skip grenadiers.

They do not relay on them.
These are simply too OP to pass up on them.
This is exactly why these are getting nerfed instead of grens getting buffed in any other way then formation change.

Moreover its not all about the exceptional performance of these units over grens, its about skipping as much resource expenditure to get to T2 asap for super early LVs and PGs, a dynamic that is very unintended for ost.

Once more, these feedback threads are not about what I want it about improving the game. That is also simply fact that you have fail to understand so far.

Then it is a high time you stop acting like a princess, thinking every single post that doesn't 100% agree with your personal agendas is a personal attack on you and spamming report button.
15 Dec 2020, 12:06 PM
#40
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 11:34 AMVipper

This is irrelevant to teching argument. Ostheer's mainline infatry arrive later than all other faction. That is simple fact.

The end result is that when the move for the first engagement they are in worse position although their are defensive infatry.

That is one of the reasons Ostt are even worth while, they allow Ostheer to hold ground early.


This is literally the intended design and has not been an issue for years now. Ostheer has seen many metas and many with Gren builds. Also Osttruppen work as intended, they just appear to be a bit too strong in the current meta.
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