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[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

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5 Jan 2021, 14:47 PM
#421
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



kv8 rear armor 145
p4 near pen 125

brumbar rear armor 105/126
t3476 near pen 120
su85 far pen 220/242(patch)

time to apply same standards with brumbar nerfs!

If you sre suggesting that the kv-8 gets the ability to wipe squads instantly in very going to disagree with you.
5 Jan 2021, 17:24 PM
#422
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793


If you sre suggesting that the kv-8 gets the ability to wipe squads instantly in very going to disagree with you.


neither does brumbar. it has a none-remote possiblity but it is far from avre or st if you talking about insta-wipe.

the point is, the -10 armor nerf came of nowhere and unfair.
5 Jan 2021, 18:44 PM
#423
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69

I did a some Testing of V5 with VSL with an stg44, and here are my suggestions:

STG

increase the STG damage from 4 to 5


Current damage potential
vet0

range 0 (7.52 DPS)
range 15 (5.57 DPS)
range 30 (2.894)


New damage potential
vet0

range 0 (9.4 DPS)
range 15 (6.9625 DPS)
range 30 (3.6175 DPS)


Pgren STG damage potential (for comparison)
vet0

range 0 (15.492 DPS)
range 15 (9.214 DPS)
range 30 (2.767 DPS)


BAR damage potential (for comparison)
vet0

range 0 (13.204 DPS)
range 15 (6.502 DPS)
range 30 (4.202 DPS)

https://coh2.serealia.ca/


Grenade

VSL and G43 upgrades should replace the rifle Grenade with Model 24 grenades
5 Jan 2021, 19:40 PM
#424
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 14:43 PMThamor


Every single thing you said mostly allied infantry have the same available options or some options which are even better. Point of puma is actually having a mobile vehicle that can fight on par or better vs t70/stuart/daimler. Anyway even if you go for puma you get a pretty lackluster commander whose only reason to even take it is the Puma. Why it shouldn't be so late in getting it if you pick that commander.


What allied options are a better counter to light vehicles?

Allied light tanks arive after the 251 250 222 luchs. All have quite some time to their work before allied lights hit the field. Why should the puma be out at the same time and deney any window for these lights?
5 Jan 2021, 19:41 PM
#425
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 18:44 PMKT610
I did a some Testing of V5 with VSL with an stg44, and here are my suggestions:

STG

Increase STG damage from 4 to 5

Current damage potential

4 damage x9 burst = 36

New damage potential

5 damage x 9 Burst = 45

BAR damage potential (for comparison)

8 damage x 6 Burst = 48

Grenade

VSL and G43 upgrades should replace the rifle Grenade with Model 24 grenades


That's not how you calculate DPS. Dmg is only a single component of a much longer equation.



5 Jan 2021, 19:45 PM
#426
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Beyond that has there been any consideration for a tiny buff to grenadiers? I remember seeing something about Grens getting bonus accuracy against suppressed units since Ostheer relies a lot on the MG42. It would be a slight buff to them and make them slightly more effective overall while kinda fitting the essence of the faction. I know this is a fairly devided discussion as a lot of people have varying thoughts on grens but a small buff like that shouldn't be to drastic a buff while still giving them a little more oomph.


I've been the constant proponent of this.

It's not a "bonus" accuracy rather than reducing the penalties on shooting suppressed squads. Which atm is 0.5 for most weapons and 0.75 for SMG/STG.

I cautiously suggested 0.75 (even though it could just be fined with 1.0) for their basic Kar Rifles and it would be a simple small buff that goes with the whole design of OH working around the MG42. Engagements against suppressed units don't tend to be that long.
5 Jan 2021, 19:57 PM
#427
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Maybe also add a bit of extra suppression-on-shot to Grens so they help MGs initiate and maintain supression; all shots already do some, just give them more. Just be careful with the LMG42
5 Jan 2021, 20:19 PM
#428
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69







Thank you, I've made adjustments to my original post.
5 Jan 2021, 20:40 PM
#429
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 20:19 PMKT610


Thank you, I've made adjustments to my original post.


Still missing all other components. Cooldown, reload, aiming times, etc.

If you take a look at the equation, Dmg and accuracy translate directly towards a DPS increase in a direct way while other components it's minor.


You can take the DPS stats for weapons from:

https://i.serealia.ca/files/coh2dps.html

If you make the STG go from 4 to 5 it's a 25% DPS boost. You can directly copy the DPS value of the weapon and multiply it by 1.25 and then compare it to that of the BAR.

The numbers you are putting mean nothing.
5 Jan 2021, 21:10 PM
#430
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



I've been the constant proponent of this.

It's not a "bonus" accuracy rather than reducing the penalties on shooting suppressed squads. Which atm is 0.5 for most weapons and 0.75 for SMG/STG.

I cautiously suggested 0.75 (even though it could just be fined with 1.0) for their basic Kar Rifles and it would be a simple small buff that goes with the whole design of OH working around the MG42. Engagements against suppressed units don't tend to be that long.



IMO OST should really move away from the whole "gren+hmg42" meme, not towards it. On some maps the MG42 works, and on some maps it doesn't. Forcing this meme, even if you can some how balance it in some situations, removes maps like stalingrad from the 'serious map' pool because OST can barely use MG42, and maps like crossing in the woods get removed because allies can't handle MG42.

Leaves very little variety in the available map design, and any deviation in maps muddies the faction balance.
5 Jan 2021, 22:02 PM
#431
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2




IMO OST should really move away from the whole "gren+hmg42" meme, not towards it. On some maps the MG42 works, and on some maps it doesn't. Forcing this meme, even if you can some how balance it in some situations, removes maps like stalingrad from the 'serious map' pool because OST can barely use MG42, and maps like crossing in the woods get removed because allies can't handle MG42.

Leaves very little variety in the available map design, and any deviation in maps muddies the faction balance.


You might not like it but that's the direction we have regarding faction/map balance for the last 5/7 years. Stalingrad has been removed from the map rotation and Crossing is still been played. Not sure what you imply here.

MG42 is T0 and it's cheap for what it brings to the table compared to others. You are asking to completely rework how OH plays towards something more like OKW.
5 Jan 2021, 22:11 PM
#432
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69






I've fixed my original post using your suggestions. Thank you for your Feed back :)
5 Jan 2021, 22:26 PM
#433
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



You might not like it but that's the direction we have regarding faction/map balance for the last 5/7 years. Stalingrad has been removed from the map rotation and Crossing is still been played. Not sure what you imply here.

MG42 is T0 and it's cheap for what it brings to the table compared to others. You are asking to completely rework how OH plays towards something more like OKW.


One would expect that if balancing grens and MG42 as a necessary combo was a good starting point that 5/7 years worth of work wouldn't result in grens being the last choice for OST in the current meta, and a balance problem for years.

I suggest that the people who have been complaining about MG-42 being OP for years are right, and the people who have complained about grens being UP for years are also right, and the solution all along has been to move away from the meme combo instead of forcing "can only win in wide-open terrain" design pressures.
5 Jan 2021, 23:10 PM
#434
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



One would expect that if balancing grens and MG42 as a necessary combo was a good starting point that 5/7 years worth of work wouldn't result in grens being the last choice for OST in the current meta, and a balance problem for years.

I suggest that the people who have been complaining about MG-42 being OP for years are right, and the people who have complained about grens being UP for years are also right, and the solution all along has been to move away from the meme combo instead of forcing "can only win in wide-open terrain" design pressures.


Well this is the first meta that goes that heavy in avoiding Grens. AssGrens and Prostruppen have mostly been pocket strats in the past rather than mandatory.

One of the issues for Gren builds (in simil fashion to Penals) is assaulting sandbag positions which this patch (and probable future ones) are trying to solve.

Outside of further reducing mp bleed on vanilla Grens, not sure how much further you can go. I don't think vanilla stock 5 man grens is ever gonna be a thing.
6 Jan 2021, 01:10 AM
#435
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 18:44 PMKT610
I did a some Testing of V5 with VSL with an stg44, and here are my suggestions:

STG

increase the STG damage from 4 to 5


Current damage potential
vet0

range 0 (7.52 DPS)
range 15 (5.57 DPS)
range 30 (2.894)


New damage potential
vet0

range 0 (9.4 DPS)
range 15 (6.9625 DPS)
range 30 (3.6175 DPS)


Pgren STG damage potential (for comparison)
vet0

range 0 (15.492 DPS)
range 15 (9.214 DPS)
range 30 (2.767 DPS)


BAR damage potential (for comparison)
vet0

range 0 (13.204 DPS)
range 15 (6.502 DPS)
range 30 (4.202 DPS)

https://coh2.serealia.ca/


Grenade

VSL and G43 upgrades should replace the rifle Grenade with Model 24 grenades



so the patched vsl is going to be worse than stock rifles/bar.
thats before rifles get vet or double bars or both!
Yeah whats the hooha about vsl?? It was supposed to be too oppressive?

brumbar nerf too because it is too oppressive against allies stock?? double bars + vet rifles now buffed with snares, cant handle??
cons buff with snares cant handle?
re coming much earlier cant handle?

Nice gutting lol!
6 Jan 2021, 02:02 AM
#436
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69




so the patched vsl is going to be worse than stock rifles/bar.
thats before rifles get vet or double bars or both!
Yeah whats the hooha about vsl?? It was supposed to be too oppressive?



I do agree the VSL STG needs some finetuning. However, Its important to keep in mind that VSL gives Grens a STG44, increased squad size, Free medkits and other bonus. Unlike Riflemen which just get a BAR when upgraded.
6 Jan 2021, 02:15 AM
#437
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2021, 02:02 AMKT610


I do agree the VSL STG needs some finetuning. However, Its important to keep in mind that VSL gives Grens a STG44, increased squad size, Free medkits and other bonus. Unlike Riflemen which just get a BAR when upgraded.


yes but vsl is a doctrine, it locks you out of other cool abilities and heavy tanks.

it should be stronger than rifles + bar/2bars.

seems the nerfs make it worse than vet bars rifles now. vsl can also no longer hold up against allies elite infantry doctrine.

the free healing is good but comes late. good nonetheless.

the other bonus left iirc is faster vet. gutted thats all i want to say.
6 Jan 2021, 02:36 AM
#438
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

"
yes but vsl is a doctrine, it locks you out of other cool abilities and heavy tanks.

it should be stronger than rifles + bar/2bars."
> panther is a thing.
> Assault and Hold is cool and useful abilities
> 5 mans upgrade just compeletely shut down Ost weakest. Say hello with Halftrack snowball with free heal. They can stay in front of your gate until the match end.
> Fragment bomb = super cool
dont forget stromtrooper and it halftrack ~
common, 5 men Gren bring Ost to USF old time
6 Jan 2021, 03:17 AM
#439
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

"
yes but vsl is a doctrine, it locks you out of other cool abilities and heavy tanks.

it should be stronger than rifles + bar/2bars."
> panther is a thing.
> Assault and Hold is cool and useful abilities
> 5 mans upgrade just compeletely shut down Ost weakest. Say hello with Halftrack snowball with free heal. They can stay in front of your gate until the match end.
> Fragment bomb = super cool
dont forget stromtrooper and it halftrack ~
common, 5 men Gren bring Ost to USF old time


frag bombs are good for destorying buildings, so maps without buildings....lol

they are 'super cool' without the vsl nerfs
with heavy vsl nerfs, these are not enough.

not when 5men grens will now suffer to bars rifles, brens is and ppsh 7man cons.
we have not even count allies elite infantry, even guards with ptrs provide strong use of the doctrine.

so i made the same point, the -10 brumbar nerfs why not apply to allies heavy AI?
the vsl gutting, why not apply to allies callin infantry?

what are the reasons behind this selective enforcement against vsl and ostt?
you mean a -10 brumbar nerf dont already impact ost dealing with allies infantry?

why should allies have it easier to deal with ostt and vsl, and now easier to negate late game brumbar counter?
6 Jan 2021, 03:25 AM
#440
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

also now that mortars are liberalise to use smoke, that makes the whole grens+mg42 even worse for ost!

ost sniper sight nerfs, why are ukf IS still having sight bonus, in fact all allies have more stock recon options!

some makes a fuss about spotting scopes, but why ukf tank commander vision are not look into? or su85 focus sight?

wow just wow heart breaking!
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