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[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

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9 Jan 2021, 19:28 PM
#601
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 17:55 PMVipper

Both grenadier and conscripts cost 240 manpower to buy.

SVT conscripts cost 240/60mu at CP 1 and VSL grenadier cots 270/60mu at CP 2.

VSL grenadier are simply not cheaper to buy.


You do know you need to buy the 7th man right?
9 Jan 2021, 19:30 PM
#602
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290



You do know you need to buy the 7th man right?


If you mean reinforce, you do know that you need to buy the 5th man for grens? Which don't cost 20mp, but 30mp.
9 Jan 2021, 19:33 PM
#603
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


The bundle nade is relatively easy to time and does excellent damage. The satchel can work but is way harder to pull of plus you need to be far behind the enemy already due to the long fuse. If you flank from the side and the enemy retreats, you have no chance to throw a satchel in time. Another reason why I value the bundle so much is because it ignores light cover which is plenty in the later stages of the game, whereas you moving DPS gets further diminished.

Penals do have decent damage on the move on the long range, but the PGren advantage between 10-20 is definitely not negligable either. Conscripts though are pretty horrible at wiping, IS are also subpar even after the reworks. It gets a little better when they get their Brens, but then they may not walk, which makes wipes slightly more map dependent if your opponent manages to run around a corner or not.

I have simply responded to claim:
"PG are extremely good at chasing, something only barred up Riflemen can do to a similar extend. Soviets do not get similar infantry at all".
And provided the stat that show the moving DPS of unit and that pg are that much different even than Penals.

Most faction have a way to try for an early wipe and given that grenadier are not really good at chasing, PGs seem to be the alternative.

As for PGs, as long a unit of the power level of Penal is allowed this early in the game it seems that early PGs are a necessary evil. As I posted many time my personal opinion that I would rather see powerful unit arrive later but...

When ti come to bundle grenades yes it strong but it inline with light gammon bomb that can arrive at similar time with Assault officer. Biggest offender imo are commands with light gamon bomb and PG with camo. I have already suggested that camo units should have grenades replaced by DOT grenades.
9 Jan 2021, 19:35 PM
#604
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



You do know you need to buy the 7th man right?

SVT conscripts can not upgrade with a 7 entity.

7 men conscripts are 258/60mu unit and once vetted they can hold just fine vs 5 men grenadier that cost 270/60 mu and are still more expensive to buy.
9 Jan 2021, 19:35 PM
#605
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:30 PMThamor


If you mean reinforce, you do know that you need to buy the 5th man for grens? Which don't cost 20mp, but 30mp.


Yes thats why vipper said 270mp and not 240mp. Do grens have tech wich only and only benits them? In live for cons thats 250 mp and some fuel. No this easely makes cons a more expensive squad. And 10 to 40 mp for total squad ugrade differences is easely covered and over takes grens in costs.
9 Jan 2021, 19:47 PM
#606
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Yes thats why vipper said 270mp and not 240mp. Do grens have tech wich only and only benits them? In live for cons thats 250 mp and some fuel. No this easely makes cons a more expensive squad. And 10 to 40 mp fo total squad ugrades is easely covered and over takes grens in costs.

If grenadier are the "cheapest" mainline infatry than they are simply list cost efficient infatry because 3-4 conscripts, 3-4 riflemen, 3-4 tommies are all viable strategies while 4 grenadier is not.

Ostheer are probably one of the factions with slowest starts (unless they go doctrinal) so repeating the "cheapest argument" means very little because it does not really translate to an advantage.

So I suggest we stop with this myth.

Each unit has a cost to buy and the price of grenadier is 240 which is the same as conscripts.
9 Jan 2021, 19:53 PM
#607
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:47 PMVipper

If grenadier are the "cheapest" mainline infatry than they are simply list cost efficient infatry because 3-4 conscripts, 3-4 riflemen, 3-4 tommies are all viable strategies while 4 grenadier is not.

That's not how efficiency works.


Ostheer are probably one of the factions with slowest starts (unless they go doctrinal) so repeating the "cheapest argument" means very little because it does not really translate to an advantage.

Its not supposed to.
That's how balance works.
Different factions have different opening build orders.
Opening with sniper as soviets will never have same impact as opening with sniper as ost.

So I suggest we stop with this myth.

Then stop pretending grenspam should be on pair with mainlines that do not have instant access to best HMG in game and all AI support weapons in a single, cheap, fast to build building.
Viable grenspam is a myth.

Each unit has a cost to buy and the price of grenadier is 240 which is the same as conscripts.

True.
Just as true is that side upgrades that affect cons exclusively inflate cost of cons, while nothing inflates cost of grens, because there is nothing you can pay fuel for that affects them exclusively.
9 Jan 2021, 20:17 PM
#608
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:47 PMVipper

If grenadier are the "cheapest" mainline infatry than they are simply list cost efficient infatry because 3-4 conscripts, 3-4 riflemen, 3-4 tommies are all viable strategies while 4 grenadier is not.

Ostheer are probably one of the factions with slowest starts (unless they go doctrinal) so repeating the "cheapest argument" means very little because it does not really translate to an advantage.

So I suggest we stop with this myth.

Each unit has a cost to buy and the price of grenadier is 240 which is the same as conscripts.

ostheer, or rather grens specifically are not supposed to operate independently like other mainlines, thats why it is absolutely impossible to have grens and not an mg42. the issue lies in grens not synergizing well with the mg42. since suppression reduces damage grens kinda dont bite in the scenario they are supposed to operate in.

id like to see grens with a bonus against suppressed units through ability, vet, maybe the battlephase system or even natively, hell, even as a cover bonus or a bonus in friendly territory likely removed when VSL is purchased to keep the paths unique.

grens are well designed, especially for their faction, but since the game has sped up they certainly lost out much like cons did in the past.
9 Jan 2021, 20:26 PM
#609
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


ostheer, or rather grens specifically are not supposed to operate independently like other mainlines, thats why it is absolutely impossible to have grens and not an mg42. the issue lies in grens not synergizing well with the mg42. since suppression reduces damage grens kinda dont bite in the scenario they are supposed to operate in.

id like to see grens with a bonus against suppressed units through ability, vet, maybe the battlephase system or even natively, hell, even as a cover bonus or a bonus in friendly territory likely removed when VSL is purchased to keep the paths unique.

grens are well designed, especially for their faction, but since the game has sped up they certainly lost out much like cons did in the past.

And that why Ostheer has been hit so hard when their "support weapon advantage" has become so small.

Point remain that "grenadier is cheapest mainline myth" in not true and even it was true it would mean very little very little because grenadier are so cost inefficient on their own. Thus it would allot better if people stop repeating in every thread.
9 Jan 2021, 20:31 PM
#610
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273










And in all that, these valid and logical arguments conclude that undeniably, OST has the cheapest mainline. It's universally true. Conclusively, it would nice, and less off-topic, if people stop repeating the opposite in every thread.
9 Jan 2021, 20:44 PM
#611
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:26 PMVipper

And that why Ostheer has been hit so hard when their "support weapon advantage" has become so small.

It was balanced by allied early game infantry advantage becoming so small.
Ost is no longer disadvantaged in the early game.
That design is gone for 3 years at least.

Point remain that "grenadier is cheapest mainline myth" in not true and even it was true it would mean very little very little because grenadier are so cost inefficient on their own. Thus it would allot better if people stop repeating in every thread.

You can repeat it as many times as you want.

It will be just as incorrect every single time.

Oh, and grenadiers were NEVER intended to be efficient on their own. Every single time period where they were is known as period when they were OP, starting March deployment patch and ending on VSL live implementation.

If you want to spam mainline inf and succeed, do NOT play ost, they were never intended to do it.
9 Jan 2021, 20:45 PM
#612
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3113 | Subs: 2


True.
Just as true is that side upgrades that affect cons exclusively inflate cost of cons, while nothing inflates cost of grens, because there is nothing you can pay fuel for that affects them exclusively.

I know you like to repeat this point over and over again, so I'll do it as well:
Allied factions are designed for having to buy side techs and thereby delay their main tech. This is fully intended for viable builds. Just adding the cost to the infantry unit itself is exactly doing the same thing you are mocking others for: Looking at things in a total vacuum. Like comparing pure Gren builds to pure Con builds. It's completely blind to faction design and therefore by far not as clear cut "true" as you present it.
9 Jan 2021, 20:47 PM
#613
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:26 PMVipper

And that why Ostheer has been hit so hard when their "support weapon advantage" has become so small.

the support weapon advantage remains, it is however concentrated in the mg42. a change from counter barrage to a better rof or something with a wider AOE would be welcome to help it be a better damage dealer

Point remain that "grenadier is cheapest mainline myth" in not true and even it was true it would mean very little very little because grenadier are so cost inefficient on their own. Thus it would allot better if people stop repeating in every thread.

its not a myth that they are the cheapest, they are plain and simple. whats more, while they are poor on their own they are incredible with support, which is how they are supposed to be used. a maxim a con squad cost the same as a gren and an mg42 and despite the 4 extra models on the soviet side (and of course the extra 80mp in tech, but we will leave that out for the sake of numbers) is heavily in favor of ost for unit performance in the combo, including the ability to fend off light vehicles being native on grens and paid for cons. it gets even more in favor for ost when vet is added with the mg42 being able to melt light vehicles and infantry and ost being able to heal themselves and the mg. grens are not meant to be independent so there is little point in inspecting them as such.

even if you do chose to compare them individually no other mainline starts with a snare which thanks to some existing infrastructure we can actually quantify the value of. grens have additional value built in equal to greater than the tech to unlock them. for what they are grens ARE cost efficient (And the cheapest mainline going) the problem is that what they are is a little off of what they need to be.

if the mg42 is to be the staple of ostheer, grens need to be abit better at working in tandem with it.
9 Jan 2021, 20:52 PM
#614
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


I know you like to repeat this point over and over again, so I'll do it as well:
Allied factions are designed for having to buy side techs and thereby delay their main tech. This is fully intended for viable builds. Just adding the cost to the infantry unit itself is exactly doing the same thing you are mocking others for: Looking at things in a total vacuum. Like comparing pure Gren builds to pure Con builds. It's completely blind to faction design and therefore by far not as clear cut "true" as you present it.

for ukf and usf this is true, as the power the side grades bring is great and the units it touches is wide.
con upgrades on the other hand.... they are more akin to the likes of the AEC sidegrade i guess. you can claim the price of the AEC proper as whatever you would like it to be but in reality, since that side tech does nothing but unlock the AEC, it effectively inflates the cost of the AEC. similar to con upgrades, only its gating performance and nothing else.
9 Jan 2021, 21:00 PM
#615
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


And that simply make grenadier the "least cost efficient infantry", so from now we should repeat in every thread that grenadier is "least cost efficient infantry".
9 Jan 2021, 21:03 PM
#616
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515


I know you like to repeat this point over and over again, so I'll do it as well:
Allied factions are designed for having to buy side techs and thereby delay their main tech. This is fully intended for viable builds. Just adding the cost to the infantry unit itself is exactly doing the same thing you are mocking others for: Looking at things in a total vacuum. Like comparing pure Gren builds to pure Con builds. It's completely blind to faction design and therefore by far not as clear cut "true" as you present it.


Aren't USF and UKF the "only" (2/3) allied factions that have it? While I do not think that any of the mainline/elite infantry is in any way OP or UP (from conscripts to obers or 5men grens), the molly/AT nade in conscripts seems out of place, especially since you absolutely positively need the engineers with flamethrowers early on to counter possible strong buildings placements. Right now, the current version of the patch, where both upgrades are in one seems like a good option. Can be a bit infuriating that you need to bring your combat engies to the frontlines just to displace MG42s, whereas grens can do that from a safe distance with the natural rifle nade (or considering the fact that maxim is in a tier building, and poor at suppression, don't even need to)

Grens are completely fine. They fit nicely overall in OST. Would be nice to see them have extra damage vs suppressed units or some sort of "defensively-offensive" buff if you catch my drift. To further the notion of a defensive mainline unit. Especially with the defensive vet buff it gets to be viable in late game teamgames.
9 Jan 2021, 21:08 PM
#617
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 21:00 PMVipper

And that simply make grenadier the "least cost efficient infantry", so from now we should repeat in every thread that grenadier is "least cost efficient infantry".

it entirely depends on the metrics. t34 ram is the least cost efficient snare unless you have something to follow it up with in which place its batshit OP.
the satchel is the least cost effective grenade since enemies can just walk away, but as bunker buster its vastly superior to the bundled nade for the same price.
9 Jan 2021, 21:23 PM
#619
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3113 | Subs: 2


for ukf and usf this is true, as the power the side grades bring is great and the units it touches is wide.
con upgrades on the other hand.... they are more akin to the likes of the AEC sidegrade i guess. you can claim the price of the AEC proper as whatever you would like it to be but in reality, since that side tech does nothing but unlock the AEC, it effectively inflates the cost of the AEC. similar to con upgrades, only its gating performance and nothing else.


What I am saying is that economy decisions are much more complicated since the whole game has been balanced over years to allow for these play styles.
Demanding 200 MP for a side tech in a Penal build is different from demanding 200 MP from a Conscript build, since Penals will bleed you like hell and scraping 200 MP together can become quite a task. Similarly, demanding fuel for side grades is also different. For example, fast capping Conscript builds allow you to generate more early fuel income compared to slow starting Penal builds. So is demanding 10-15 fuel more from a Conscript player by minute 7 really that worse? Maybe not, because he (at least partially) generated more income at the start of the game.
9 Jan 2021, 21:30 PM
#620
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Will there be an Ostheer revamp for Commanders too?

There are so many useless units and Commanders... hull-down is useless, fire-bombing-run is useless (hole commander is usless), Commando-Panzer4 is more or less useless

In my opinion all def. commanders are more worse than good etc.



Also last revamp of community-commander made it worse than better. I would say same for old Osttruppen-Commander was better than new one.
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