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[Winter Balance Update] USF Feedback

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2 Dec 2020, 13:16 PM
#141
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13413 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 13:02 PMGiaA
Very good changes.

My critiques:

1. USF desparately needs a sniper counter. Possibly an upgradable snipeshot ability for either the captain or the RE?

Maybe a doctrinal option like redesigning pathfinder as support unit at 240 manpower cost and making critical kills a timed ability with 40-45 range?

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 13:02 PMGiaA

2. Without having tested it (there's a lack of players willing to test the mod unfortunately so I personally have only tested soviets and wehr) the Scott change seems like an overnerf. The scott can be problematic but its strength strongly depends on the map and the army compositions. I see the problem that it can be nearly uncounterable (similar to the sniper) in certain stalemate situations that tend to occur on maps like langres and crossroads or on crossing in the woods in 2v2. But fact is that this unit is fairly rarely seen in 1v1 games simply due to the fact that it brings you one medium tank/td down in an even game. I feel like with this change it would basically go extinct in 1v1. I also don't understand why the vet 1 smoke isn't removed as a first step towards decreased survivability.

Agree

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 13:02 PMGiaA

3. WC51 nerf might not be enough. The low cost of the WC51 and the super strong doctrinal context would probably still make it the go to option for USF. It will still fight infantry super cost efficiently early on. The exposure to small arms fire won't make that big of a difference because it can self repair without any costs. Unlike with the Bren Carrier you don't give up any capping power using it. And it still has the mid game utility of functioning as a bazooka/satchel carrier or mark target deliverer.

WC51 should lose the crew that cost more than half the price of the unit.
3 Dec 2020, 09:49 AM
#142
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 692 | Subs: 2

I don't understand the M20 timing buff for the following reasons:

A. Having snares on all rifles after teching is a massive buff for the M20 already.

B. Shortens an already short early game phase.

C. Most people are stuck in this weird mindset that LVs HAVE to function as a shock unit. This becomes particularly apparent in the 222 vs AEC and M20 vs 222 matchups. In both those cases the superior unit arrives around the same time, however this doesn't mean the weaker unit isn't viable anymore. You just have to protect it with snares or AT. In the Live version this is done by the LT bazooka which needs to be equipped immediately with the M20. In the patch you have snares on all your rifles in addition to this.

D. The M20 provides massive utility (Sight, Mines, AA, Smoke, Harrasment) even in the later stages of the game. It doesn't have to be a pure shock unit.
3 Dec 2020, 09:56 AM
#143
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2020, 09:49 AMGiaA
I don't understand the M20 timing buff for the following reasons:

A. Having snares on all rifles after teching is a massive buff for the M20 already.

B. Shortens an already short early game phase.

C. Most people are stuck in this weird mindset that LVs HAVE to function as a shock unit. This becomes particularly apparent in the 222 vs AEC and M20 vs 222 matchups. In both those cases the superior unit arrives around the same time, however this doesn't mean the weaker unit isn't viable anymore. You just have to protect it with snares or AT. In the Live version this is done by the LT bazooka which needs to be equipped immediately with the M20. In the patch you have snares on all your rifles in addition to this.

D. The M20 provides massive utility (Sight, Mines, AA, Smoke, Harrasment) even in the later stages of the game. It doesn't have to be a pure shock unit.



Based as fuck

M20 should not arrive earlier. If it’s not good enough, make it stronger.
3 Dec 2020, 10:01 AM
#144
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17746 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2020, 09:49 AMGiaA
I don't understand the M20 timing buff for the following reasons:

A. Having snares on all rifles after teching is a massive buff for the M20 already.

B. Shortens an already short early game phase.

C. Most people are stuck in this weird mindset that LVs HAVE to function as a shock unit. This becomes particularly apparent in the 222 vs AEC and M20 vs 222 matchups. In both those cases the superior unit arrives around the same time, however this doesn't mean the weaker unit isn't viable anymore. You just have to protect it with snares or AT. In the Live version this is done by the LT bazooka which needs to be equipped immediately with the M20. In the patch you have snares on all your rifles in addition to this.

D. The M20 provides massive utility (Sight, Mines, AA, Smoke, Harrasment) even in the later stages of the game. It doesn't have to be a pure shock unit.

a) cons can also have early AT nades, but it never made M3 more viable or last longer
b) arrival of lights do not end early game, arrival of light tanks does
c) well, you've answered yourself here, if your light is outright destroyed or constantly zoned out, its value diminishes greatly, so it needs to pay for itself within the short window between its arrival and its hardcounter arrival, just bacause M20 or Kubel survived 20 minutes doesn't mean they actually achieved anything in last 15.
d) in a perfect world, all lights are useful to some degree at all stages of the game, if only to provide sight and some support ability, in practice they are way too fragile to do anything outside of their initial shock value time window, because if it can't handle dual ATG alpha strike, its not going to provide you any value in mid to late game
3 Dec 2020, 11:00 AM
#145
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13413 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2020, 09:49 AMGiaA
I don't understand the M20 timing buff for the following reasons:

A. Having snares on all rifles after teching is a massive buff for the M20 already.

B. Shortens an already short early game phase.

I agree with this part, the trend to make powerful units available early is not healthy.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2020, 09:49 AMGiaA

C. Most people are stuck in this weird mindset that LVs HAVE to function as a shock unit. This becomes particularly apparent in the 222 vs AEC and M20 vs 222 matchups. In both those cases the superior unit arrives around the same time, however this doesn't mean the weaker unit isn't viable anymore. You just have to protect it with snares or AT. In the Live version this is done by the LT bazooka which needs to be equipped immediately with the M20. In the patch you have snares on all your rifles in addition to this.

I also agree here but imo there are solutions:

The M20 could be redesigned to be closer to other micro light and become cheaper while the upgrade of skirt cost mu/manpower increase the power level of the unit and could locked behind tech.

221 could be reitrocuded for Ostheer and 222 could become more expensive and arrive later with redesign to soft light tank counter.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2020, 09:49 AMGiaA

D. The M20 provides massive utility (Sight, Mines, AA, Smoke, Harrasment) even in the later stages of the game. It doesn't have to be a pure shock unit.

Also agree here.
3 Dec 2020, 11:45 AM
#146
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 692 | Subs: 2


a) cons can also have early AT nades, but it never made M3 more viable or last longer


a) m3 and m20 can't be compared due to performance and different usages. M20 is closer to a light tank in terms of function than to the m3, wc51 or bren. Also cons don't automatically get at nades once m3 is teched so the comparison doesn't really work in the first place. Pls trust me on this one, I've used that unit a shitton. It also shouldn't die if you use it well.

Random dane cast of me using M20 in an older patch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_RIcJecZ5I

Also watch ML1 Tiramisu vs Quiritz G1 on Mill Road for Ostheer vs US matchup in current patch.


b) arrival of lights do not end early game, arrival of light tanks does


By early game I mean the infantry+ultra light phase. Question of semantics.

well, you've answered yourself here, if your light is outright destroyed or constantly zoned out, its value diminishes greatly, so it needs to pay for itself within the short window between its arrival and its hardcounter arrival, just bacause M20 or Kubel survived 20 minutes doesn't mean they actually achieved anything in last 15.


You're mixing up Ultra Lights (Kübel, Bren, WC51) with Lights. The "being constantly zoned" out thing you mentioned is exactly what I was talking about. The AEC got absolutely slaughtered in the patch because people considered its timing unfair relative to 222. This is because people want to use the 222 vs brits exactly like they do vs USF and Soviets, meaning as a unit that immediately dominates the field for a certain time window. Obviously that's not doable vs the old AEC timing but rightfully so because Brits lack snares on their mainline and rely on the bren carrier (which requires protection vs 222) vs sniper starts.

The same problem exists to a lesser degree in the context of M20 vs 222. If you upgrade your LT bazooka straight away and keep it close to the M20 the 222 will be kept busy chasing away but not killing the M20 and you transition comfortably into Stuart. Now add snares to that to limit the 222s ability to threaten the M20 even more and Wehrmacht ends up in a very awkward spot vs 2 light vehicles. 2 Light vehicles if played well are very underrated. 1 Pak is potentially not enough to deal with them, 2 Paks is too big of a manpower investment.

d) in a perfect world, all lights are useful to some degree at all stages of the game, if only to provide sight and some support ability, in practice they are way too fragile to do anything outside of their initial shock value time window, because if it can't handle dual ATG alpha strike, its not going to provide you any value in mid to late game


This perfect world exists already for the most part.

And once again youre mixing up ultra lights with lights. First of all about ultra lights: Kübel is a super useful maphack. WC51 can use mark target, artillery and can be used as a cheese bazooka/satchel bus. You're right about the Bren. (although it does haved incredible early-early mid value so the drop off is sort of justified) M3 is just shit in general but theoretically it can be used as a capping unit.

The M20 is on a completely different level in terms of usefulness late game. It's extremely mobile and doesn't take small arms damage so you can use it to harrass the sides. (see my replay) It has 60 sight which is extremely valuable. It has some AA. (I've been told 2 M20 outperform the AAHT in terms of anti air) Last but not least it is a mobile teller placement machine. Just the threat of M20 mines forces your opponent to always sweep. It also shouldn't die to double pak because 60 sight, speed and smoke.
3 Dec 2020, 12:03 PM
#147
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1




Based as fuck

M20 should not arrive earlier. If it’s not good enough, make it stronger.


I agree with both of you.
3 Dec 2020, 23:31 PM
#148
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 10:01 AMVipper

Well the mod team seem to have a different opinion.

Let me explain this to you, this:

"M36 Jackson
With the reduction on armour of certain Axis tanks, along with the M36 receiving improved penetration from previous patches, the unit no longer needs high veterancy bonuses for penetration.
- Veterancy 2 penetration bonus from +30% to +20%"

is nerf.


well yes, its a nerf in the same way that the +5 fuel it got a ways back is a nerf. we check the box saying it was nerfed but realistically no change takes place
4 Dec 2020, 08:01 AM
#149
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13413 | Subs: 1



well yes, its a nerf in the same way that the +5 fuel it got a ways back is a nerf. we check the box saying it was nerfed but realistically no change takes place

I agree that the change will have minimal impact but it shoots down katitof theory that "Jackson is not OP and doesn't require any nerfs" and that I am the only saying the unit is op.
4 Dec 2020, 09:24 AM
#150
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

Maybe i missed it but wich axis units have had their armour nerfed this patch that initiate the reduction of pen gained by vet on the td's?
4 Dec 2020, 09:28 AM
#151
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13413 | Subs: 1

Maybe i missed it but wich axis units have had their armour nerfed this patch that initiate the reduction of pen gained by vet on the td's?

Yes you missed the part where axis Armour was nerfed and allied TD base stat where increased while their vet bonuses remain tuned for prepatched values:

M36 Jackson
With the reduction on armour of certain Axis tanks, along with the M36 receiving improved penetration from previous patches, the unit no longer needs high veterancy bonuses for penetration.
- Veterancy 2 penetration bonus from +30% to +20%
4 Dec 2020, 09:34 AM
#152
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3165 | Subs: 7

Maybe i missed it but wich axis units have had their armour nerfed this patch that initiate the reduction of pen gained by vet on the td's?


It's about a general reduction in front armor for most Axis heavies over the past years, like the Panther, Jagdtiger and Brummbar. The penetration values of these TDs have never been adjusted accordingly, their veterancy 2/3 penetration is excessively high.
4 Dec 2020, 10:19 AM
#153
avatar of Boz_Hower

Posts: 28



That is literally impossible. The minimal pen for vet 2+ Jackson HVAP is 325, the Tiger's armor is 300. They have 100% chance to pen at all ranges. And by the way, this particular scenario won't change with the nerf.



AFAIK the way how penetration works in Coh2 is armor divided by penetration to get chance to penetration right?

So 300/325 should be around 92.30% chance to penetration? Unless there is a rounded up that I don't know about
4 Dec 2020, 10:24 AM
#154
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



So 300/325 should be around 92.30% chance to penetration? Unless there is a rounded up that I don't know about


It's the other way around.

325 / 300 = 1.08 -> always pen

arbitrary simple example
if a tank has an armor of 140, is hit by weapon of pen of 70, that's 140/70 = 0.5 (half time it pens)

times it by hundred if you want "percentages"
(140 / 70) *100 = 50%
4 Dec 2020, 10:25 AM
#155
avatar of Boz_Hower

Posts: 28



It's the other way around.

325 / 300 = 1.08 -> always pen

arbitrary example
if a tank has an armor of 140, is hit by weapon of pen of 70, that's 140/70 = 0.5 (half time it pens)


Ah my bad, thanks for the correction
4 Dec 2020, 12:01 PM
#156
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



It's about a general reduction in front armor for most Axis heavies over the past years, like the Panther, Jagdtiger and Brummbar. The penetration values of these TDs have never been adjusted accordingly, their veterancy 2/3 penetration is excessively high.


Ok thanks for the response.

Can explain the panther accuracy buff aa well? I get the pen reduction but i dont get the acc buff as allied tanks dont get armour buffs or target size reductions buffs.
4 Dec 2020, 13:59 PM
#157
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1509

I was wondering about the following change:

Pak howi redesign to a more of static bombard role.
Nerf accuracy by any means necessary in autofire (scatter, whatever..) and reduce the AOE to 1.25/2.5/4.5 (50% nerf is too big right now) and buff barrage however you feel like necessary, be it CD or acc or whatever.

Scott nerf barrage but rework it to a more autofire vehicle.

Because I still don't know why I would ever go scott for the barrage in teamgames. No infantry will be as static and against AT team it's easy to reposition it with the low damage profile (same with non brain-damaged MGs). I tested scott as a barrage unit (double scotts) and it was downright useless against anything but some static infantry capturing the point behind sandbags. Against those units, if they don't reposition, the accuracy buff is useful. And if anyone says to use barrage on moving units then I just give up
4 Dec 2020, 14:27 PM
#158
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Ok thanks for the response.

Can explain the panther accuracy buff aa well? I get the pen reduction but i dont get the acc buff as allied tanks dont get armour buffs or target size reductions buffs.

They don't get those buffs default but a few patches ago they all received a lowering of target size that has left the Panther wanting. This brings the Panther back in line with previous performance while mediums will still benifit from decreased hit chance from other sources.
4 Dec 2020, 14:38 PM
#159
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2020, 08:01 AMVipper

I agree that the change will have minimal impact but it shoots down katitof theory that "Jackson is not OP and doesn't require any nerfs" and that I am the only saying the unit is op.

But they didn't really nerf it so they don't seem to feel it's OP. I agree the Jackson is a bit much but this change is functionally a non change. It would be like reducing the mg damage on the pwerfer to tone it down. It's checking a box to say it was nerfed without actually changing anything. It's a "nerf not a nerf and" nerfs" are more fan service than balance changes.
4 Dec 2020, 15:14 PM
#160
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13413 | Subs: 1


But they didn't really nerf it so they don't seem to feel it's OP. I agree the Jackson is a bit much but this change is functionally a non change. It would be like reducing the mg damage on the pwerfer to tone it down. It's checking a box to say it was nerfed without actually changing anything. It's a "nerf not a nerf and" nerfs" are more fan service than balance changes.

see it as you like this is the explanation provided:

"With the reduction on armour of certain Axis tanks, along with the M36 receiving improved penetration from previous patches, the unit no longer needs high veterancy bonuses for penetration."

("Jackson" doesn't require any nerfs" claim goes out the window no matter what you want to call i. Can we go back to something more constructive now?)
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