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World Championships is/was stale as old bread

23 Nov 2020, 12:09 PM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1


Yes, these are all doctrinal units to counter a stock one. No one can tell me that this is good game design.

However we've had plenty Jackson threads already and I don't want to derail here, so I'd rather go back to meta discussion here and move the a Jackson debate to an old or new thread.

And my point was that there was meta that did not include the M36.
23 Nov 2020, 13:27 PM
#22
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3505 | Subs: 3

Tourneys have never seen much variety. With fame and prices like 10k on the line, players are generally not going to take risks and will only play the most efficient strategies of the time. This has always been the case (Maxim spam, MobiDef, Command Panther/Tiger, etc.) and this will never change.

That being said, Osttruppen meta has been a bit worse than normal because only WC-51 USF seems to be able to stand up to it reliably, limiting the counter picks more than usual which has further decreased variety.

Even if/when Osttruppen are changed, it will very likely just lead to the next most efficient strategy surfacing and being picked over and over again.



You can’t boast this is the most balanced state the game has ever been in and then contradict it by saying nerfing Osttruppen doesn’t matter because people will crutch on the best strat available anyway.

Osttruppen need a real nerf. Luvnest said it best.
23 Nov 2020, 13:43 PM
#23
avatar of Antemurale
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 943

I would be hesitant to nerf Osttruppen. They work well because they synergize exceptionally well with WM as a whole (alleviates their early-game weakness, screens well for MGs and PaK guns). Nerf Osttruppen and WM will flock to German Infantry for 5-man Grenadiers again. I would say that the core WM army might need tweaks to keep it out of the early-game meta.

The WC51, on the other hand, deserves a nerf. Having 45 range with artillery and mark target is ridiculous. It's no wonder the M20 is never used nowadays.
23 Nov 2020, 13:56 PM
#24
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

You can’t boast this is the most balanced state the game has ever been in and then contradict it by saying nerfing Osttruppen doesn’t matter because people will crutch on the best strat available anyway.


There is more to this game than just 1v1 tournament meta.
23 Nov 2020, 13:58 PM
#25
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

as far as luvnest said ostruppen shut down Soviet and mechanzied shuts down OKW

UKF is a gamble against sniper

so peaple are left with ost and usf.

Ost has 2 main choices in 1vs1 5 men grens and osttruppen. The problem is that grens bleed to much in the earlygame vs wc51. So your stuck with ostruppen.

All USF commanders without wc51 lack the early game to deal with osttruppen, plus mechanized offers the m4c in the lategame which is arguably better than the p4 (in AT at least).

So basically the problems come from Osttruppen being to good early shutting down the game in 4 min (FHT or PG) if your not carefull and the WC51 overperforming against OKW and expensive to refresh grens (WC51 50 cal has arguable too much range , and can escape 222 with step on it pretty easily)
23 Nov 2020, 14:17 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1

...
The WC51, on the other hand, deserves a nerf. Having 45 range with artillery and mark target is ridiculous. It's no wonder the M20 is never used nowadays.

The problems WC51 where highlight even from preview of the DBP and have been raised repeatedly.

Imo though the problem is wider then WC51. The time units arrived has being reduced again and again and that made the window of opportunity for certain units smaller.

In order to keep light/micro light vehicles useful they have been too much including in DPS. And that as I have pointed out in previous post has made the impact of these vehicles too much.

Imo other solution should looked at as:

Reintroducing 221 with a new role as crap counter to micro lights and snipers with less DPS vs infatry

Redesign the 222 as a soft counter to vehicles with less AI

Increase the window of opportunity of units

add utility to certain units so it less about their shock values and more about what their bring on the table

And do I agree that WC51 is op.
23 Nov 2020, 14:30 PM
#27
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 112

as far as luvnest said ostruppen shut down Soviet and mechanzied shuts down OKW

UKF is a gamble against sniper

so peaple are left with ost and usf.

Ost has 2 main choices in 1vs1 5 men grens and osttruppen. The problem is that grens bleed to much in the earlygame vs wc51. So your stuck with ostruppen.

All USF commanders without wc51 lack the early game to deal with osttruppen, plus mechanized offers the m4c in the lategame which is arguably better than the p4 (in AT at least).

So basically the problems come from Osttruppen being to good early shutting down the game in 4 min (FHT or PG) if your not carefull and the WC51 overperforming against OKW and expensive to refresh grens (WC51 50 cal has arguable too much range , and can escape 222 with step on it pretty easily)


*Uneducated suggestion alert*

- Reduce Ostruppen to 5 man

Then completely rework the WC51 because a utility truck being an aggressive front line unit is just silly.

- Make WC51 non-doc & put in battalion CP.
- Move forward retreat deploy ability from Major to WC51. Also add weapon racks when deployed for forward equipping (like forward assembly)
- Remove .50cal upgrade
- When garrisoned by an officer squad, WC51 gains the mark target and artillery barrage abilities.

USF can deploy it as a forward retreat and still use the Major aggressively. Also increases the penalty to USF for having forward retreat destroyed because it costs fuel not just a 3 man squad. USF now have a non-doc infantry transport for those off-meta games.

If that doesn't sound like a good alternative use, just yeet it out the commander anyway. Mechanized will still be viable without it.
23 Nov 2020, 14:37 PM
#28
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2020, 14:30 PMTomDRV


*Uneducated suggestion alert*

- Reduce Ostruppen to 5 man

Then completely rework the WC51 because a utility truck being an aggressive front line unit is just silly.

- Make WC51 non-doc & put in battalion CP.
- Move forward retreat deploy ability from Major to WC51. Also add weapon racks when deployed for forward equipping (like forward assembly)
- Remove .50cal upgrade

USF can deploy it as a forward retreat and still use the Major aggressively. Also increases the penalty to USF for having forward retreat destroyed because it costs fuel not just a 3 man squad. USF now have a non-doc infantry transport for those off-meta games.

Mechanized will still be viable without it.


not sure about the wc51 change

Ostruppen to 5 men might actually work! Then you could add the 6th men with vet and actually buff their scaling so they can actually compete with vet 3 grens in the lategame
23 Nov 2020, 15:29 PM
#29
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3505 | Subs: 3

Only changes the WC51 needs are
1) Range reduction to 40 from the current 45. This makes it harder to poke infantry from a safe distance, makes it easier to counterplay and increases micro strain on usf player.
2) Health decrease to 200 from the current 240. This means WC51 gets 1-shot from schu mines. This makes regular 30 muni mines a good counterplay option for the wc51, meaning the USF player has to be more careful and escort it with a sweeper.
23 Nov 2020, 15:48 PM
#30
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1238

Only changes the WC51 needs are
1) Range reduction to 40 from the current 45. This makes it harder to poke infantry from a safe distance, makes it easier to counterplay and increases micro strain on usf player.
2) Health decrease to 200 from the current 240. This means WC51 gets 1-shot from schu mines. This makes regular 30 muni mines a good counterplay option for the wc51, meaning the USF player has to be more careful and escort it with a sweeper.


Sensible nerfs that would make WC51 more balanced. Agreed.
23 Nov 2020, 17:06 PM
#31
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303



Sensible nerfs that would make WC51 more balanced. Agreed.


i would go even further and copy paste the dmg of the sov armored car. The Dmg output on the WC51 seems much strongeer than on the m3 (more like M20 level)
23 Nov 2020, 19:15 PM
#32
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1196

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2020, 12:09 PMVipper

And my point was that there was meta that did not include the M36.

Everyone use jakcson that means jackson op
No one use it jackson still op

But u right if people dont need Jackson our mission is to nerf it or maybe even replace it with wolverine and then nerf jackson because jackson op
23 Nov 2020, 19:52 PM
#33
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 174

Its always hard to determine faction and/or commander balance in a game with a player population this small. There isn't a ton of experimenting done, and certainly not any done at the world championships. I agree that there may be more out there that could be found, but the patch announcement means there is little reason for anyone to continue experimenting.

Given the incredible focus on early game power in the current meta, I think its worth confronting the idea that doctrinal units can be more powerful than nondoctrinal ones. Commander picks are almost universally determined by what units they unlock, which suggests that they are adding power rather than complexity to the faction.
23 Nov 2020, 21:32 PM
#34
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2465 | Subs: 21

I wanted a balance patch before this tournament. I assume they didn't have the time to implement or play test it sadly.
We could've had a commander ban system that would've been helpful.
Or at the very least a nerf of meta commanders through the tourney mod.

That said the meta is the meta, in the end it's almost impossible to stop it one way or another. Past tournaments have had m4c/cmd panther meta, puma meta, rifle company meta, partysans, etc....

I think it would be more entertaining to have your opponent pick a faction and commander for you to play and visa versa.
23 Nov 2020, 23:35 PM
#35
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3051 | Subs: 14

i think players being able to ban opponents commanders after learning what faction they're playing is long overdue for competitive play. The "Oh what commander is he/should he pop for this scenario?" drama in matches would be elevated higher than ever.

Force different playstyles, force adaptation and encourage and reward big brain preparation for certain opponents etc
24 Nov 2020, 01:39 AM
#36
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

i think players being able to ban opponents commanders after learning what faction they're playing is long overdue for competitive play. The "Oh what commander is he/should he pop for this scenario?" drama in matches would be elevated higher than ever.

Force different playstyles, force adaptation and encourage and reward big brain preparation for certain opponents etc

Or just bring back Commander Terminator.
24 Nov 2020, 03:56 AM
#37
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 211

Ironically we had more build diversity in the Heavy Tonk meta than now lol.

It's just oversight thou. Remember that the extremely dominant doctrines atm didn't get much if any changes from the last Heavy Tonk Patch.

If you remove the blatantly overpowered commanders (Osttrupen, Royal Arty, Urban Defense, Infantry doctrine, etc) the rest of the game balance is quite nice. But there are just uber doctrines that didn't get banned from the tournaments yet for some reason.

If I wanted to watch Jeep opening into a LV and Sherman spam for USF vs Cheap ost mainline and team weapon play delaying into mediums and heavies I really would watch Coh1. We've basically had 3 ML already with just Usf Mech vs Ost Osttrupen. Some people can watch that for 25 games and be fine with it but it's kind of getting stale watching Coh1 in Coh2 for 3 tournaments already.

This ain't the first time we had this problem. Remember when Ost Mobile Defense doctrine vs Sov Armored Assault commander a year or two before? Ost Mobile defense had like a 70% pick rate for axis.
24 Nov 2020, 04:12 AM
#38
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 59

Only changes the WC51 needs are
1) Range reduction to 40 from the current 45. This makes it harder to poke infantry from a safe distance, makes it easier to counterplay and increases micro strain on usf player.
2) Health decrease to 200 from the current 240. This means WC51 gets 1-shot from schu mines. This makes regular 30 muni mines a good counterplay option for the wc51, meaning the USF player has to be more careful and escort it with a sweeper.



yes, reduce health of halftracks too while u r at it. the half track available to Brits via a commander, is oppressive to go against, especially with it's high health and tommies with tommy gun inside it, it should be one shotted with one mine and a couple of penetrating small arms fire.

wc51 should not be able to cap points, but you will say kubel can. but kubel is shit compared to wc51
24 Nov 2020, 04:17 AM
#39
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 59

Ironically we had more build diversity in the Heavy Tonk meta than now lol.

It's just oversight thou. Remember that the extremely dominant doctrines atm didn't get much if any changes from the last Heavy Tonk Patch.

If you remove the blatantly overpowered commanders (Osttrupen, Royal Arty, Urban Defense, Infantry doctrine, etc) the rest of the game balance is quite nice. But there are just uber doctrines that didn't get banned from the tournaments yet for some reason.

If I wanted to watch Jeep opening into a LV and Sherman spam for USF vs Cheap ost mainline and team weapon play delaying into mediums and heavies I really would watch Coh1. We've basically had 3 ML already with just Usf Mech vs Ost Osttrupen. Some people can watch that for 25 games and be fine with it but it's kind of getting stale watching Coh1 in Coh2 for 3 tournaments already.

This ain't the first time we had this problem. Remember when Ost Mobile Defense doctrine vs Sov Armored Assault commander a year or two before? Ost Mobile defense had like a 70% pick rate for axis.


that is why i was sad when Asiamint lost, he was bringing something fresh like OKW and Sov. Finals and semifinals had no Brit, Sov and OKW play. I was desperate for variety in the Championship that i was hoping for Brit Play, that was how desperate i was to not see another Ostruppen and WC51 play
24 Nov 2020, 06:02 AM
#40
avatar of ichoosethesteak

Posts: 33

Keep it simple.

Start game off with Axis banning a Ally faction. Then choose your faction simultaneously. 30 second time limit for allies to ban a commander and 30 second time limit for Axis ban a commander so that a total of 3 commanders are banned for allies and axis. Then launch the game.

It would be easy to code something simple like that into a tournament mod.

Wahlah, you have your diversity and more entertainment.

There is a reason why league of legends has been the most popular game in the world for 10 years now, why not copy them?
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