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Shock grenade

3 Aug 2020, 06:39 AM
#101
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 361

Tommies and sappers are 4 man unless upgraded, CE are 4 men, partisans are4 men, RE are 4 men, major is 3 men, Pathfinders are 4 men non soviet weapon teams are 4 men.... Allies have small squads as well.... Which the larger bundled nade does extremely well against. I think it too should be normalized against the cooked pineaple because unit context is OP.


I see what you're saying but imo it's a stretch.

Maxims, mortar, conscripts, penals, zis, heavy mortar, shocks, guards, dshka commisar, assault guards, airborne guards

Riflemen, lts, captain, re, paras, rangers, cav riflemen

Tommies, sappers, commandos, assault tommies, officers

Vs

Assault grens, vsl pio/grens, ostruppen, Jaeger command
.
Volks, pfuss, officer.

12 out of 25 units that are capable of more than 4 men are doctrinal for allies

7 out of 8 units for Axis. Axis in general are firing @ larger squads and this even includes grens which is what, one of 20 doctrines?

3 Aug 2020, 08:44 AM
#102
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 1

Sorry, but wtf are these unit counting comparisons?

Having 4 men on Grenadiers is not comparable to having 4 men on Partisans and Pathfinders. One is the mainline infantry that you build about 3-4 of every game (apart from specialized OST doctrines), the other ones are supplemental units that you usually only have one of.

On average, Axis have less large squads than Allies, although I'd add that this is mostly true for OST. Regarding infantry sizes, USF and OKW are quite similar, UKF at least mid-late game gets 5 men overall. Team weapons are 4 men for the most part.

The larger squad sizes help to not get wiped if you look at singular events (so only one or two tank shots or a grenade). For longer time frames, MMX has shown that squad formation is actually more important.
Overall though it's pretty safe to say that larger squad sizes also lead to more bleed, because you have a higher chance of getting one or two idiot models that just start weirdly twitching on top of the grenade instead of running away. Or actually running to the grenade because they really need to keep their formation etc.
3 Aug 2020, 09:07 AM
#103
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 297


Bundle nades are usually used against very large squads because of the design difference. Don't manipulate.

Please don't lecture me. It is not related to the topic.

There are very few such squads, and most of them get more men as the game progresses. You are manipulating. Allied nades are used mostly against 4 men squads and that is why they usually will inflict more manpower bleed. Axis will have to use "bigger" and more expensive nades to have similar results. Those bigger nades will have longer explosion times, which often requires more skill to use.

It is not true. PGs fight larger squads more often. Shocks don't really need grenades to kill osttruppen. PFs are only a threat to them after an expensive munition upgrade. Still shocks can use smoke, use shotblockers, etc, to close the distance and annihilate them. The whole point is to make a tiny adjustment to a grenade pricing to reflect its better than standard nade performance. I don't really understand why you are so frustrated about it. Such change will probably make the gameplay experience better. It won't affect balance that much as the price should probably be sth between the bundle a a standard nade.

This comment is again not related in any way to adequate pricing of things to avoid in game frustrations.




Are you on drugs or something? You're spilling out BS that has nothing to do with reality.

PGs fight larger squads because they are 4 man. No matter the model number difference they still dominate close range all mainline infantry (as they should).

Bundled nades are not only used against very large squads. They are used vs everything. Often enough if the battle is raging across multiple spots, and with a bit of luck that your enemy is not ATM looking at your PGs, you can get single squad wipes easily, and if it's not a wipe, it's definitely an 60-80% model lost which puts it out of action for some time. They are better used vs larger congregations but that's usually seen in teamgames.

How can you even compare PGs and Shocks? One is a stock elite unit with utility to fight blobs, vehicles, etc... and the other is a doctrinal AI only infantry that specializes in closing the gap and destroying infantry. Hence the smoke + good nade. The unit you can compare shocks too are Assault Grenadiers, and in that light, the nade is well balanced.

Also, the PGs bundled nade has large enough radius and short enough fuse that if throw in the middle of the squad, you will most definitely force a retreat since no squad can remove (run away) all the models in 1.25 seconds in a 20 range radius (or the enemy faces a probable wipe). How can you compare PGs and Shocks?
3 Aug 2020, 09:12 AM
#104
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 297

Sorry, but wtf are these unit counting comparisons?

Having 4 men on Grenadiers is not comparable to having 4 men on Partisans and Pathfinders. One is the mainline infantry that you build about 3-4 of every game (apart from specialized OST doctrines), the other ones are supplemental units that you usually only have one of.

On average, Axis have less large squads than Allies, although I'd add that this is mostly true for OST. Regarding infantry sizes, USF and OKW are quite similar, UKF at least mid-late game gets 5 men overall. Team weapons are 4 men for the most part.

The larger squad sizes help to not get wiped if you look at singular events (so only one or two tank shots or a grenade). For longer time frames, MMX has shown that squad formation is actually more important.
Overall though it's pretty safe to say that larger squad sizes also lead to more bleed, because you have a higher chance of getting one or two idiot models that just start weirdly twitching on top of the grenade instead of running away. Or actually running to the grenade because they really need to keep their formation etc.


That too. Rifles/IS/Conscript 5(6-7) man can sometimes be detrimental in a fight. You put them behind the cover and one model decides to be out of cover. MG shoots and in a split second, the whole squad is pinned because of one model. OST should not be compared to USF. In fact, factions should not be compared symmetrically in this game. Also the more models you have, the higher the chances that they will clump up eventually in a firefight.

How is this thread even alive?
3 Aug 2020, 09:18 AM
#105
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 261



How is this thread even alive?

People forget to play the game.
3 Aug 2020, 09:38 AM
#106
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1301


Post

You're missing my point completely. The bundle nade is more expensive and more potent. The player hit with it understands that a more expensive grenade will deal more damage and feels it is natural. If they dodge it, the opponent wastes more munitions. With shocks the grenade is a bit better than the standard one and probably should cost a bit more to make it logical. Maybe sth like 5 munitions more. It would also indicate to new players that it is a better nade than standard nades. Imo you're making too much fuss here.

Sidenote: It needs to be remembered that standard allies grenades will usually inflict similar manpower damage to bundle nades. If a bundle nade kills 3-4 infantry models on a squad, the result is often similar to 2 models on an axis squad killed by a standard nade (similar manpower cost to reinforce). Of course if players can use grenades well they can often have better results but that is another story.

3 Aug 2020, 10:07 AM
#107
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 297


You're missing my point completely. The bundle nade is more expensive and more potent. The player hit with it understands that a more expensive grenade will deal more damage and feels it is natural. If they dodge it, the opponent wastes more munitions. With shocks the grenade is a bit better than the standard one and probably should cost a bit more to make it logical. Maybe sth like 5 munitions more. It would also indicate to new players that it is a better nade than standard nades. Imo you're making too much fuss here.

Sidenote: It needs to be remembered that standard allies grenades will usually inflict similar manpower damage to bundle nades. If a bundle nade kills 3-4 infantry models on a squad, the result is often similar to 2 models on an axis squad killed by a standard nade (similar manpower cost to reinforce). Of course if players can use grenades well they can often have better results but that is another story.



First paragraph I can agree with. 5 muni more wouldn't make a difference, not substantial at least unless you're making love to granades and keep pumping them out. However, that's the only thing that should change on Shocks. Shocks need to represent the name they have been given. SHOCK troops.

2nd paragraph: 3-4 infantry models on Allied is definitely not anywhere close to any 2 model lost on Axis. That would mean that reinforce cost of allies is 2x lower than that of Axis. Looking at the patch notes of last year... the reinforce cost of OST has gone down. There is no way in hell that 3-4 downed models on IS/RE or Rifles/Echelons or Cons/penals equals 2 models down on Grens or PGrens or ASgrens or Sturmpios or Volks. Is there anywhere, where I could check the reinforce costs of vetted and non-vetted infantry squads? Also remember the old saying "Brick by brick and you have a palace". Most people usually think "Eh, having 5 manpower more to reinforce is nothing. Yeah, reinforcing once, it's not...reinforcing throughout a 50 minute game, it's a lot. (similar to people who smoke)
3 Aug 2020, 19:59 PM
#108
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1301



Post

You're right here. Just remember about elite vs elite situation. The reinforcement cost can be as high as 40 for some axis squads. So a standard nade might have similar manpower bleed power as a bundle in many situations (with bundle being more expensive and having longer timetoexplode). It does not have to be like that but it is quite often the case. Skill with making grenades actually wipe or kill many models is quite essential (plus the opponent's lack of attention sometimes).
3 Aug 2020, 21:52 PM
#109
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 689


You're right here. Just remember about elite vs elite situation. The reinforcement cost can be as high as 40 for some axis squads. So a standard nade might have similar manpower bleed power as a bundle in many situations (with bundle being more expensive and having longer timetoexplode). It does not have to be like that but it is quite often the case. Skill with making grenades actually wipe or kill many models is quite essential (plus the opponent's lack of attention sometimes).


Now take into account the dps and effective range of the axis squad wich have the bundle nade.
If it hits wich is quite common because of squad spacing during dodge attempts and its larger aoe, obers pgrens and falls will drop the enemy inf like flies.
5 Aug 2020, 13:45 PM
#110
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 540

Eh, I have no issues with shocks having a better than average grenade, given their complete lack of flexibility in pretty much all categories,
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