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Shock grenade

29 Jul 2020, 18:04 PM
#61
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 17:04 PMVipper

It simply means that contrary to the intention as explained in he patch notes they where not brought up to be "on par" but where made superior instead.


Okay, that they where made superior, just not by much. They still are closer to normal nades then they are to bundles.
Again shocks with nades dont wipe as much as pgrens obers etc do with the bundle nades. That combi is far more leathal for 10 muni more i believe.

So i am still not convinced there is a problem with the shocks nade.
29 Jul 2020, 19:53 PM
#62
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 15:10 PMVipper


Shock;s grenades are not "on par" with cooked grenades they simply superior.


you are not looking anywhere near the package though. balance has to do with context. units with cooked nades can do more. shocks do the one thing they do really well. specialists ALWAYS are more efficient for similar costs at their one job. ALWAYS. having a slightly better nade isnt an issue, certainly not game breaking and far from needing to be on the 4th page of a discussion...
if shocks were more versatile i would be on board with bringing the nade more inline with other, more flexible units grenades. but they are not, so it doesnt need to be changed.
29 Jul 2020, 20:01 PM
#63
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 17:04 PMVipper

It simply means that contrary to the intention as explained in he patch notes they where not brought up to be "on par" but where made superior instead.


Stop lying, nothing in the patch notes since 2015 talks about Shocks grenades being on par with anything or even refering to their performance.
29 Jul 2020, 20:05 PM
#64
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 17:04 PMVipper

It simply means that contrary to the intention as explained in he patch notes they where not brought up to be "on par" but where made superior instead.

Made superior to what? Generalist infantry nades?
Specialist AI units ALWAYS had better nades, since day 1.

They don't seem to be better then other elite infantry nades and in some cases (PGs nuclear nades) are worse.
29 Jul 2020, 20:09 PM
#65
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



Nothing in the patch notes since 2015 talks about Shocks grenades being on par with anything or even refering to their performance.


You are right, you found something quite important there.

The exact sentence about Shocks being brought up "on par" appears only in the Balance Preview posts. It does not appear by itself in the official patch notes. Therefore, it is to be taken with a bit of salt and its original source has not been clarified throughout the thread (and the thread has been derailed to discuss the English of "on par"). I suggest that anything that is part of a preview should not be considered as official patch notes, as a lot of things changed before they were made live.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/244493/december-commander-revamp-changlog

Also, the sentence that says that shocks should "equally viable to both Axis" is omitted. Conclusion (based on preview builds): Shocks should have had even better grenades with even more boom as it says so in its design intention. mic drop.
29 Jul 2020, 20:23 PM
#66
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

They forgot to add that to the official changelog. I've asked Sturm if that could be fix at the time but oh well.

The final preview SHOULD be what we got for the patch.

I don't think changes had been done but if there is doubt as to what the patch notes said, we have the changelog here https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/page/6
29 Jul 2020, 20:25 PM
#67
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

They forgot to add that to the official changelog. I've asked Sturm if that could be fix at the time but oh well.

The final preview SHOULD be what we got for the patch.


Yeah, forgetting happens but Relic's prone to ninja-changes and non-changes. It's best practice to only refer to proper patch notes, and not to previews.
29 Jul 2020, 20:27 PM
#68
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3




Don't see anything about "on par" with other infantry.

Thus Shocks having better grenades is totally fine.
29 Jul 2020, 20:28 PM
#69
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

I don't think changes had been done but if there is doubt as to what the patch notes said, we have the changelog here https://www.coh2.org/topic/4307/company-of-heroes-2-changelog/page/6


Shock Troops have been adjusted to have lower bleed effects on a player’s manpower due to their short-range while their grenade has been improved to assist with flanks and dislodging team weapons.


and that's all that should be referred to. Nothing with "on par", which mislead the conversation. On par didn't get into the official patch notes at all.

Everyone who keeps insisting that preview patch notes are part of the official patch notes is intentionally misleading conversations.
29 Jul 2020, 20:29 PM
#70
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



Pick up your mic.

If you scroll down a bit more to a later preview post you'll see this:




Don't see anything about "on par" with other infantry.


(drops mic) I said "based on preview build" aka that particular iteration of the build, not later ones.
29 Jul 2020, 20:29 PM
#71
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



(drops mic) I said "based on preview build" aka that particular iteration of the build, not later ones.


It's fine I read your post wrong.
30 Jul 2020, 03:24 AM
#72
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

price up should be fair. Its good, but also cheapskate good.
30 Jul 2020, 09:50 AM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



you are not looking anywhere near the package though. balance has to do with context. units with cooked nades can do more. shocks do the one thing they do really well. specialists ALWAYS are more efficient for similar costs at their one job. ALWAYS. having a slightly better nade isnt an issue, certainly not game breaking and far from needing to be on the 4th page of a discussion...
if shocks were more versatile i would be on board with bringing the nade more inline with other, more flexible units grenades. but they are not, so it doesnt need to be changed.

What I have pointed out so far is that Shock where not designed to better grenades as claimed.

As for "specialist" the closest thing to Shock troops are ranges/smg paras who use the cooked grenade that is inferior to shock's grenades
30 Jul 2020, 09:54 AM
#74
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Stop lying, nothing in the patch notes since 2015 talks about Shocks grenades being on par with anything or even refering to their performance.

Dear Sir
if you want to accuse someone of laying you should be accusing elchino7 and not me. He is the one that brought up the "on par" quote and not me.

The fact that accuse me demonstrates your bias against me. In addition you are simply wrong since this part of the game's patch notes.
30 Jul 2020, 09:57 AM
#75
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2020, 09:50 AMVipper

What I have pointed out so far is that Shock where not designed to better grenades as claimed.


And you have failed to note what others have already pointed out, that there is NOTHING in years of changes to the unit that says they are not supposed to be better.

On pair, as again, noted multiple times does not mean carbon copy, it can mean stronger, it can mean weaker, it can cost more, it can cost less.

You know, like all stock med tanks are on pair with each other short of T34.

If it means stronger in this particular case, there is nothing wrong with it as the unit deals less DPS and got much weaker infantry standing behind it in the context of other armies and their SMG troops.

As for "specialist" the closest thing to Shock troops are ranges/smg paras who use the cooked grenade that is inferior to shock's grenades

Different factions, different units, different stats.
Both of them have stronger weapons, shocks can't even dream of DPS thompson paras can pull.
Both of them also suffer much less from DPS loss per model as they have less SMGs then squad members and rifles are nowhere near that DPS.
30 Jul 2020, 09:58 AM
#76
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 20:05 PMKatitof

Made superior to what? Generalist infantry nades?
Specialist AI units ALWAYS had better nades, since day 1.

They don't seem to be better then other elite infantry nades and in some cases (PGs nuclear nades) are worse.

If you actually took the time to read my posts or even the OP you would know that I have said that shock's grenade is superior to the cooked grenade. The cooked grenade is used by paras/ranger.

PLS start reading more carefully instead of forcing me just to repeat the same thing over and over again just for you.
30 Jul 2020, 14:45 PM
#79
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2020, 09:50 AMVipper

What I have pointed out so far is that Shock where not designed to better grenades as claimed.

As for "specialist" the closest thing to Shock troops are ranges/smg paras who use the cooked grenade that is inferior to shock's grenades

A lot of things don't function as they were designed. What's important is their current design doesn't alter faction design and they remain a unique and fun unit for both sides of the VP.

As for smg paras being the closest thing, if o recall smg paras also have tactical advance to make them more spooky, self healing, a timed demo, forward reinforcement and sprint with vet. The closest thing isn't so close really....
30 Jul 2020, 15:02 PM
#80
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3106 | Subs: 2

I don't understand why so many people argue about the strawman of the exact wording of patch notes from 2+ years ago.

Although it might provide some explanation why something is like it is, it does not matter what the intention was. What's important is if the design still works or not.
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