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Reverse the M5 upgrade

29 Jun 2020, 20:30 PM
#1
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1093 | Subs: 1

Just gonna pitch the short idea I just head:

The Soviet M5 halftrack was supposed to be the counterpart to OST's 251 by allowing SOV to set up a forward "base".
Currently, nobody builds it though, because it offers nothing to the table. It comes fairly late at 7-8 minutes and is countered easily by all Axis LVs, the PaK/Raketen and can also be easily fausted. The stock version doesn't do much damage as well, so it's only purpose is to reinforce which is not crucial for Soviets at this stage. Then there is the option to upgrade it with the anti air package that costs an horrendous amount of muni for a vehicle that is already outdated by the time this upgrade finishes. Also, there is no going back to use it as a utility vehicle again. It stays a DPM machine, and a quite shitty one at that (at least for the late game). The only time I every bought it was as late game anti air. This is also what I saw from opponents: it's bought as anti air, if at all.

All vehicles in the Soviet T3 have a hard time to compete with the T70. Still, I propose the following change:

1. The M5 enters the field as the upgraded version. Bump up the costs slightly in exchange (+5 fuel or + 50 MP or something)
2. Add a free "upgrade" that dismantles the Quad upgrade.

This would improve the timing issue (although not solve it, also depends on the cost adjustment), readjust the high cost for the Quad upgrade, and give it optional late game possibilities if you want to have a forward base as Soviets. Everyone that wants to have it as late game AA can still buy it, and if you want the usually better scaling "utility" of LVs for the late game, just dismantle Quad and get your reinforcement point back.


I still doubt that it will become a decent choice over the T70, but it might give it at least some functionality back.
29 Jun 2020, 20:50 PM
#2
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3221

It comes fairly late at 7-8 minutes and is countered easily by all Axis LVs


It actually kills the Ostheer ones. It was quite popular when skipping Ost T2 was the meta because it can shut down AT Panzergrenadiers.
29 Jun 2020, 20:54 PM
#3
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1093 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 20:50 PMLago


It actually kills the Ostheer ones. It was quite popular when skipping Ost T2 was the meta because it can shut down AT Panzergrenadiers.

This might be, but the M5 is not build as a "251-killer". The 251 got a mine and a healing utility buff to become more viable, it also has a better window of opportunity by coming at the 5 min mark and therefore having 4-5 min before the T70 arrives. The M5 enters the field when OST already has a LV (potentially 222) or OKW is building a Luchs/Puma. But it also has no other utility than reinforcing. You only buy it if you want to upgrade it anyway, and the reinforcement scales much better into the late game if you don't want an AA vehicle.
29 Jun 2020, 21:17 PM
#4
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4090 | Subs: 1

Eeeeeeh not a huge fan. On one hand it would free up more munitions in team games for strikes, especially after taking out the quad but on the other hand.... Actually pretty much that but from the other perspective.

I'd perhaps maybe suggest looking at lowering the cost of t3 and increasing the cost of the T70 so that timing remains the same (t4 cost increase as well to keep that timing unchanged) basicly increase access and opportunity for the quad, this would also possibly give the su76 a better window and chance as stopgap AT or as a mobile barrage tool in time before just building a t70 is the best option.

Edit: or look at a t3 split like okw has that makes the lesser used t3 units more accessible
30 Jun 2020, 07:36 AM
#5
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 1

Make it available from the HQ and unlockable with T3 (as it is) OR with T1 AND T2 built.
30 Jun 2020, 08:17 AM
#6
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1093 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2020, 07:36 AMEsxile
Make it available from the HQ and unlockable with T3 (as it is) OR with T1 AND T2 built.

I doubt though that this would solve something. It does not change the timing or costs, and SOV never lose their T3 building anyway.
30 Jun 2020, 08:46 AM
#7
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2020, 07:36 AMEsxile
Make it available from the HQ and unlockable with T3 (as it is) OR with T1 AND T2 built.

I have it in the HQ and requiring either T3 or T4 (as they work a bit differently).

I don't like the idea of it starting with the quad-mount and having a free 'upgrade' to remove it. Whatever the balance implications may be, that's poor design.
30 Jun 2020, 08:52 AM
#8
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 1


I doubt though that this would solve something. It does not change the timing or costs, and SOV never lose their T3 building anyway.


Wouldn't make it come sooner?

Other solution is an USF way of solving stuff:

Cut T3 price in two
T3.0 allow M5 and SU-76
T3.5 allow T70

So the T70 initial cost remains the same but now you can have the M5 and SU-76 for a cheaper initial cost.

T4 would still need T3.5 unlock to be built.
30 Jun 2020, 09:33 AM
#9
avatar of Maret

Posts: 641

Problem with M5 that in SU T3 you need only one unit - T70. M5 and SU-76 almost nonexisten units in current SU roster. M5 (as flame HT) dies from 2 pak/rak shots that means - one mistake and you lose unit and your fuel.

Besides idea of split upgrades in T3, also will be good to increase HP pool for M5-quad and flame-ht, that 2 shots from ATG don't kill them. 330-340 HP as example, their armor low compare to light tanks and they could be executed by small arms fire. And maybe we will see more these units in games.


30 Jun 2020, 09:54 AM
#10
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 157

Could also add an option to 'hull-down' after the quad upgrade. When stationary the quad could reinforce again, aswell as use the quad.


Hulling down takes +/- 5 sec. and removing the hull down +/- 15-20 sec.) upgrade could come free with the quad upgrade (which is already expensive as is). This idea could be extended with ambulance healing aura or forward retreat point, but that seems a little over the top imo.
30 Jun 2020, 09:58 AM
#11
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1093 | Subs: 1

Although I don't like splitting tech costs too much, I agree that the T3 cost split would be more benefitial. It could also give the mobilized reserves upgrade a better spot, because in its current form it is just not worth getting it at T3. However I don't want this discussion to be about mobilized reserves, since this would have even more implications to Conscript balance.

The cost split has already been proposed in a thread some weeks ago. I don't know if balance team has picked up on this, if they threw it over board or if it is on the list of things to test. But since it has already been made, I just wanted to throw in another idea that could at least improve some issues in case we will not see a cost split.
30 Jun 2020, 10:17 AM
#12
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1055

Could also add an option to 'hull-down' after the quad upgrade. When stationary the quad could reinforce again, aswell as use the quad.


Hulling down takes +/- 5 sec. and removing the hull down +/- 15-20 sec.) upgrade could come free with the quad upgrade (which is already expensive as is). This idea could be extended with ambulance healing aura or forward retreat point, but that seems a little over the top imo.
I like that
30 Jun 2020, 10:30 AM
#13
avatar of Maret

Posts: 641

Could also add an option to 'hull-down' after the quad upgrade. When stationary the quad could reinforce again, aswell as use the quad.


Hulling down takes +/- 5 sec. and removing the hull down +/- 15-20 sec.) upgrade could come free with the quad upgrade (which is already expensive as is). This idea could be extended with ambulance healing aura or forward retreat point, but that seems a little over the top imo.

It's better IMHO, make separate upgrades:
1. Quad gun/Flamethrower (for OST) - add little amount of HP. Don't die from 2 ATG shots.
2. Medic station - add healing aura when not in combat, must be deployed, increased area of reinforcement.
30 Jun 2020, 10:40 AM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8533 | Subs: 1

If quad is to be touched one should start with lowering its AA capabilities. Actually one should have a look at the whole planes/AA interaction since the performance of AA is all over the place.

As for OP suggestion I find the quad way to powerful for the suggested price.
30 Jun 2020, 11:25 AM
#15
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 157

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2020, 10:30 AMMaret

It's better IMHO, to make separate upgrades:
1. Quad gun/Flamethrower (for OST) - add little amount of HP. Don't die from 2 ATG shots.
2. Medic station - add healing aura when not in combat, must be deployed, increased area of reinforcement.


An even better idea, make it Utility or Combat effective. If this is added to the 251 I suggest the standard onboard healing is discarded.
30 Jun 2020, 17:57 PM
#16
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2020, 10:40 AMVipper
If quad is to be touched one should start with lowering its AA capabilities. Actually one should have a look at the whole planes/AA interaction since the performance of AA is all over the place.

As for OP suggestion I find the quad way to powerful for the suggested price.


Why should the AA be nerfed? Espexially in a faction with no pintle mounts

Recently Bofors and ostwind were buffed because this exact gap and reason. AA Is no use if it doesn't take down a plane in first two passes
30 Jun 2020, 18:41 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8533 | Subs: 1



Why should the AA be nerfed? Espexially in a faction with no pintle mounts

Quad is superior AA by a large margin and OP has suggested to become cheaper and available earlier.


Recently Bofors and ostwind were buffed because this exact gap and reason. AA Is no use if it doesn't take down a plane in first two passes

Bofors AA was buffed because its AA was 0.

I am not sure what buff in the ostwind AA you are referring at but is much more expensive than proposed quad.
30 Jun 2020, 19:41 PM
#18
avatar of borobadger

Posts: 158

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jun 2020, 10:30 AMMaret

It's better IMHO, make separate upgrades:
1. Quad gun/Flamethrower (for OST) - add little amount of HP. Don't die from 2 ATG shots.
2. Medic station - add healing aura when not in combat, must be deployed, increased area of reinforcement.


The flame HT is basically already impossible for Sovs to deal with, making it 3 shots would just make it even more oppressive than it arguably already is.
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