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russian armor

State of the ISU-152

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23 Jun 2020, 01:43 AM
#21
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

I find it to be a bit to oppressive towards infantry, but it’s AT is balanced.

I would go with a 10 range decrease on the HE shells, but to increase its consistency I would say buff it’s machine gun.

Just my 2 cents
23 Jun 2020, 02:14 AM
#22
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



The reason I didn't add them was because I'm not going to list every 60 range unit in the game. Not that the su76 needs to be listed because of its current state though.

That's the point of this thread though. Whether or not the ISU is too good is up for debate, but because it comes in a doctrine that allows it to contest for best doctrine in the game, a panther doesn't exactly counter the ISU.

You could have simply said 60 range TDs instead of saying 60 range and then specifically refining it...

Also I said earlier the issue isn't so much the isu I feel as it is that the doctrines within are very well rounded. I'm of the same mind as Vipper that star armour shouldn't be combined with hard hitting off maps, especially not when ALSO combined with elite infantry.
23 Jun 2020, 07:03 AM
#23
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

ISU is just a bad design. It should deal zero damage to medium/heavy armour. It should only have HE shells.

If panther's gun cannot deal with infantry it is perfectly acceptable for isu to deal only with infantry. Soviets have it both ways on too many units. At squads/guns can deal with both infantry and tanks (guards, penals, ZiS, Su76, etc). If they were realistically speaking inferior at both these jobs to dedicated units (those dealing only with one threat) it would be ok. But they are too close to being as good as dedicated units (realistically speaking). This is the core of the problem. Very often some other abilities (mark target, ram, off maps, snares) combined with those units lead to problems and frustrations on the receiving players end.
23 Jun 2020, 07:19 AM
#24
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



The panther has difficulty countering 60 range jacksons and fireflys. How is the 70 range ISU countered moreso?

Its not going to run away fast.
Last one I killed went down to a single panther and 2 PAK flank with some gren cover for paks.
23 Jun 2020, 08:59 AM
#25
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

Radical suggestion: Make its main gun fire HE only through an ability like the Churchill AVRE.
23 Jun 2020, 09:05 AM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

One should first fix the commanders and at least removing IL-2 bombing and mark target and see from there.

(And yes stuka dive bomb should also be removed from the Elefant as I have pointed out many times)
23 Jun 2020, 11:22 AM
#27
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2020, 09:05 AMVipper
One should first fix the commanders and at least removing IL-2 bombing and mark target and see from there.

(And yes stuka dive bomb should also be removed from the Elefant as I have pointed out many times)

I agree its more about op commanders
Imo both isu and ele are somehow balanced
23 Jun 2020, 11:32 AM
#28
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

To interprete the vots, it is clearly OP. Fanboy-bias often vote for "my op stuff is fine". :P Same for op-cryer. Let's meet in middle.

soft op.
23 Jun 2020, 12:43 PM
#29
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jun 2020, 08:59 AMA table
Radical suggestion: Make its main gun fire HE only through an ability like the Churchill AVRE.

It is far from radical imo. If Ferdinand can only fight armour ISU should be an infantry only killer.

Switchable rounds give you more options. HE round could be 70 range but maybe almost zero pen and no deflection damage. AT round could have more penetration but max 50 range, for example.
23 Jun 2020, 12:50 PM
#30
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

ISU is just a bad design. It should deal zero damage to medium/heavy armour. It should only have HE shells.

If panther's gun cannot deal with infantry it is perfectly acceptable for isu to deal only with infantry. Soviets have it both ways on too many units. At squads/guns can deal with both infantry and tanks (guards, penals, ZiS, Su76, etc). If they were realistically speaking inferior at both these jobs to dedicated units (those dealing only with one threat) it would be ok. But they are too close to being as good as dedicated units (realistically speaking). This is the core of the problem. Very often some other abilities (mark target, ram, off maps, snares) combined with those units lead to problems and frustrations on the receiving players end.

Try to use your noggin here for a second. Do you REALLY want to fight an AI only unit that costs as much as the isu does?

If you remove its AT it would need a cost decrease.... Which means it would be easier to get and support. It would mean when you take one out, the next one is going to replace it eaiser.

OR

if you want to keep its cost up you need to increase its power somehow, and since it's only an AI unit that's another direction nobody wants.

Its weak AT performance keeps its cost up and its power manageable.

Balance is a teeter toter of many factors, if you simply remove one something else either has to give or something else needs improved.

23 Jun 2020, 14:07 PM
#31
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


Try to use your noggin here for a second. Do you REALLY want to fight an AI only unit that costs as much as the isu does?

If you remove its AT it would need a cost decrease.... Which means it would be easier to get and support. It would mean when you take one out, the next one is going to replace it eaiser.

OR

if you want to keep its cost up you need to increase its power somehow, and since it's only an AI unit that's another direction nobody wants.

Its weak AT performance keeps its cost up and its power manageable.

Balance is a teeter toter of many factors, if you simply remove one something else either has to give or something else needs improved.


I know what balancing stuff means. I used to create board game rules.

The problem with ISU is simple. It deals greatly with infantry from 70 range AND it can also deal extra damage to tanks from afar, which makes it better than Elephant as it combines both roles. With all standard AT tools it often adds up enough hp damage to be decisive in winning armour engagements. Range is the key here. It can sit behind the front lines. Charging it with tanks will always be risky because of mines, sanres, and because of the frontline screen of troops.

I don't think the price really reflects its performance (like many other Soviet units btw).
23 Jun 2020, 14:21 PM
#32
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


I know what balancing stuff means. I used to create board game rules.

The problem with ISU is simple. It deals greatly with infantry from 70 range AND it can also deal extra damage to tanks from afar, which makes it better than Elephant as it combines both roles. With all standard AT tools it often adds up enough hp damage to be decisive in winning armour engagements. Range is the key here. It can sit behind the front lines. Charging it with tanks will always be risky because of mines, sanres, and because of the frontline screen of troops.

I don't think the price really reflects its performance (like many other Soviet units btw).

The isu is more rounded but not better than an elefant per say. The elefant gives you guaranteed armour supremacy no matter what the enemy is using where the isu works like a worse su85 if on AP shells. It can do both but it's AT performance is not great you are overstating its AT. it's there to balance its cost to keep it high without having a 200+ Fuel only AI unit. I've played the game since the beta, I remeber what an AI only ISU is like and it's not something we need again.
23 Jun 2020, 14:41 PM
#33
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2

One way to nerf the ISU could be to lower the frontal armor and give it some more HP instead (obviously not so much that it results in a buff in total).

This would mean that lower tier vehicles would work more reliably against it and give it longer downtime due to repairs. However it would also be able to stay longer in fights and be contradictory to the general design of casemates (strong front, weak rear), since the difference between front and rear armor would be smaller.
23 Jun 2020, 14:44 PM
#34
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 132



The panther has difficulty countering 60 range jacksons and fireflys. How is the 70 range ISU countered moreso?


I have seen all of the TD bounce on Panther frontally and the most surprising was ISU bouncing on pz4 okw vet 2 frontally which happened with me. Out of all TDs except ISU panther's shot does not bounce. Yeah they are a problem I guess also the blitz panther gets on vet 1.

Has there been any replay where the ISU has wiped a squad with full hp?
23 Jun 2020, 14:49 PM
#35
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2257 | Subs: 1

if the theorycraftin in this thread was cent coins i'd be a rich man right now
23 Jun 2020, 14:50 PM
#36
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

Nothing wrong with ISU. It's a great heavy that actually performs well unlike KT.

The issue is just with the stupid call in. Same goes for elephant doc. Yea yea it's an old subject but still relevant because it has not been fixed.
23 Jun 2020, 14:51 PM
#37
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

One way to nerf the ISU could be to lower the frontal armor and give it some more HP instead (obviously not so much that it results in a buff in total).

This would mean that lower tier vehicles would work more reliably against it and give it longer downtime due to repairs. However it would also be able to stay longer in fights and be contradictory to the general design of casemates (strong front, weak rear), since the difference between front and rear armor would be smaller.

To be frank, would it need a health buff to accomidate the armour nerf? I know that's completely contrary to what I have been saying but it already has enough health to be forgiving, dropping say 40 armour, if screened properly it should be fine. With ptrs penals, oorah cons, t34 rams, 30 mu mines and 60 range TDs, getting in there should be rewarded
23 Jun 2020, 15:03 PM
#38
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2


To be frank, would it need a health buff to accomidate the armour nerf? I know that's completely contrary to what I have been saying but it already has enough health to be forgiving, dropping say 40 armour, if screened properly it should be fine. With ptrs penals, oorah cons, t34 rams, 30 mu mines and 60 range TDs, getting in there should be rewarded


We could discuss this for quite a while. It's impossible to tell if it is better to lower the armor slightly and not do anything to the hitpoints or go for a larger armor nerf and a HP buff to compensate without talking about actual numbers as examples.

My idea just came from the fact that the ISU is not overly beefy (for its price obviously) once you manage to overrun it. Therefore armor nerfs should be compensated somehow. And if the offensive capability should stay the same (just postulating this), then a slight nerf could go to the micro it needs to make it work.
The armor nerf would enable to damage it more often and thereby cause more downtime due to repairs. Good micro keeps the downtimes low. Also, as you said, a well supported ISU would still be effective, but if there is a hole in the defense (too few mines, lost a TD, a unit out of position), you loop back to more damage and longer downtime, while the overall chance to kill the ISU should stay the same (if armor nerf and HP buff were chosen correctly).
23 Jun 2020, 15:51 PM
#39
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


The isu is more rounded but not better than an elefant per say. The elefant gives you guaranteed armour supremacy no matter what the enemy is using where the isu works like a worse su85 if on AP shells. It can do both but it's AT performance is not great you are overstating its AT. it's there to balance its cost to keep it high without having a 200+ Fuel only AI unit. I've played the game since the beta, I remeber what an AI only ISU is like and it's not something we need again.


You can kill elephant with infantry/AT builds. If you see one on the field you are very likely to spend more resources into AT/infantry department and just kill it. ISU, just like many Soviet units, just follows the pattern of being the jack of all trades. Soviets don't really care about analyzing what is on the battlefield. Whatever they build will be ok against most threats. There are people building ZiS guns just to act like mortars even when there are no vehicles on the field. They don't risk wasting resources by building wrong counters. ISU follows the same pattern. Axis armies don't have such luxury. If you build an elephant, the enemy will win the infantry war.
23 Jun 2020, 16:19 PM
#40
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711



You can kill elephant with infantry/AT builds. If you see one on the field you are very likely to spend more resources into AT/infantry department and just kill it. ISU, just like many Soviet units, just follows the pattern of being the jack of all trades. Soviets don't really care about analyzing what is on the battlefield. Whatever they build will be ok against most threats. There are people building ZiS guns just to act like mortars even when there are no vehicles on the field. They don't risk wasting resources by building wrong counters. ISU follows the same pattern. Axis armies don't have such luxury. If you build an elephant, the enemy will win the infantry war.

You just decribe gamedesign differences between OST and SU. OST have units with narrow specialization (better perfomance against specific targets), while SU units all-around (mediocre perfomance against 2 types of threates). OST have only few all-around major units: P4 and Tiger. And SU have few specialist units: katy and su-85.
You can kill ISU use infantry/AT builds (shreck blobs, stun shots, blietzkfrieg armor) or use your elefant. In 1vs1 there aren't unbeatable builds.
I saw that game with zis spam. OST player lost 2 brummbar until he realized that against team weapon spam he need werfer...It was tunnel vision of OST player.
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