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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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30 Mar 2020, 15:13 PM
#181
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863



It is. But the fact that lategame it is better to quickly replace repair unit for 170mp than for 200mp or 300mp is also pretty basic.


You are aware that okw bases have repair pios, right?
30 Mar 2020, 15:18 PM
#182
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156


OKW has base repairs that is approximately cost equivalent even to CEs (15 fuel for 70 MP) and has a base repair of 9, compared to 11,x of the CEs if I recall correctly. This functionality is the second pio squad that OKW usually does not buy and frees the actual Sturmpioneers for front line duty. These repairs are static, but also do not bleed and they are easy to micro, especially in team games since they do not take up any coordination or micro with your partner.

Thx for the info but I'm really aware of it. Even with this extra repair option it doesn't mean CEs should be that cheap. It doesn't bleed you, but it can't cap and you must retreat your vehicle and give up battlefield presence. Often it is impossible to retreat when you have a crippled engine. Generally comparing OKW and Sov in this respect is difficult as they are totally different. I'd say that ostheer pio should be simply cheaper or CEs more expensive. To me, their battlefield/repair performance is absolutely similar and there shouldn't be 30mp discrepancy in the cost.
30 Mar 2020, 15:19 PM
#183
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156



You are aware that okw bases have repair pios, right?

Yes I am well aware. Just watch some replays from the tournament :) How some OKW players lost their damaged panthers of other vehicles to quickly repaired IS2s or other tanks.
30 Mar 2020, 15:20 PM
#184
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863


Yes I am well aware. Just watch some replays from the tournament :) How some OKW players lost their damaged panthers of other vehicles to quickly repaired IS2s or other tanks.


No need, I was at the last 1v1 tournament playing okw, so I got first hand experience.

CEs are fine at 170mp. Stop crying.
30 Mar 2020, 15:46 PM
#185
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4210 | Subs: 1


To me, their battlefield/repair performance is absolutely similar and there shouldn't be 30mp discrepancy in the cost.
and there is the root of the problem. To you. To everyone else who is using in game and on paper applications pios are superior if ONLY because of their increased vision, but also the other things they can do. They are superior in a support role and if you can't find merit in that does not qualify as a balance issue. Seeing further than even armour can shoot is a boon. Slapping it on any team weapon you get the chance to is huge. Being able to see the enemy diving for the tank you are repairing and getting a few precious seconds to face your armour or get a shot off is a huge bonus that isn't even quantifiable outside in the moment. You are severely discounting the power of increased vision. Let alone being able pit hurt on in the early game when lines are full of holes.
30 Mar 2020, 16:01 PM
#186
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156


what you preffer does not dictate balance. the numbers themselves do. pios do more. pios cost more.
tell me, objectivly, if combat engies had increased line of sight, would they be better, worse or the same as they are now (no other changes, just increased sight). if CE could build bunkers, would they be better or worse? like i said, no "well buit" just yes or no.

Sandabags - they were given to pios because grens didn't get them. Ostheer got punished because cons and UKF infantry can build sandbags but grens can't. As a sort of comforting gift pioneers got this ability just to make sure it is more difficult for ost players to build them. Now you are saying that because grens can't get sandbags, their engineers should be more expensive!

Same with sight - there was a problem with mgs - they got nerfed because they were able to block most maps too easily. Pios were supposed to help them early game to make it possible for ost to survive and not get their mgs overrun as grens weren't able to capture or hold territory on their own. Instead of buffing grens or mgs they decided pios will have more vision to spot for them. Again, you want to punish the whole faction for those abilities they got instead of proper buffs somewhere else (for example, UKF mgs from tier 0 just got better vision and they don't need a spotter).

pios were given the ability to build sandbags years after not having them, for nothing (no accosiated nerf, just gifted the sandbags) thats not a nerf to the faction, thats a buff to teh faction. and regardless of how you think sandbags should be allocated, pios have them and it is part of their kit which is included in their cost.

No, it shouldn't. I'll give you an example of cons. They cost 240mp. They can build sandbags, they can oorah, they can throw flame nades, they can throw at nades, they can build tripwire mines expecially deadly to 4 men squads, they can merge allowing support weapons and e.g. engineers stay longer on the field, they can finally become 7 men and get a discount when reinforcing per model after they are 7. I'm not even trying to enumerate all the goodies they can get through doctrines.

Grens at the same time can only build a bunker (150mp - nonsense), have a nade, have a snare, can be upgraded with mgs.

If my maths is ok that is 8 very useful abilities to just 4 (one completely ridiculous - bunker). It probably means cons should be 60 manpower more expensive than grens using Your logic.



except it is part of their kit and thus part of the discussion with them. its something they can do and CE cannot. cons being able to merge is a conscript discussion and a trait that gets brought up when discussing cons as bunkers are for the units that can build them. you cant just decide what is and isnt relevant, thats not how this works. (i assume you mean reinforce and not heal, because outside a few commanders soviet do need to retreat to base to heal)


I wish balancing units was as simple as you say - unfortunately it isn't. I hope my example with cons shows on what kind of cherrypicking adventure you are. How can you suggest pios should be more expensive because of their abilities and at the same time not see so many Soviet units that get a lot of cool bonuses and abilities that are completely not reflected in their price!?


and i like how you are trying to discount bunkers as a faction feature but arguing against soviet russia being able to field a squad slight cheaper than its superior counterpart...

Because it would be enough if grens OR engineers build them - you can't spam them like soviet mines.


they DO MORE so theY COST MORE. you pay more, you get more. i dont know how you are not understanding this.
im even more confused as to how soviet have always had cheaper cons but now its destabilizing the late game, 6 years in. 30mp does not go that far. its a con and a half.

I explained it alread many times - lategame capping and repair advantage! Because you can just spam them to sidecap or recover vehicles for very little manpower. It was very visible in the last tournament. Soviets are the last army where you can say that if you get more you pay more. Remeber that their engineer capabilities to repair stuff, detect mines, lay mines are the same.
30 Mar 2020, 16:08 PM
#187
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156



No need, I was at the last 1v1 tournament playing okw, so I got first hand experience.

Did you win more games as OKW or as Soviets? Did you even choose ostheer to play with and their super vision 200mp pios?

CEs are fine at 170mp. Stop crying.

I'm not crying. I'm only drawing attention to real balance problems. I understand it may hurt when somebody suggests it is not the units' dps but a simple fact that one faction has the cheapest engineer squad. Just open your eyes a bit :)
30 Mar 2020, 16:11 PM
#188
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863


Did you win more games as OKW or as Soviets? Did you even choose ostheer to play with and their super vision 200mp pios? 1 win with both, I don't play Ost until I get mobile defense back.

I'm not crying. I'm only drawing attention to real balance problems. I understand it may hurt when somebody suggests it is not the units' dps but a simple fact that one faction has the cheapest engineer squad. Just open your eyes a bit :) My eyes are open, they just don't see a good argument, just a dude in denial.
30 Mar 2020, 16:14 PM
#189
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

My eyes are open, they just don't see a good argument, just a dude in denial.

Just remember that the post started with the idea that CEs are too weak and should be buffed!!!
30 Mar 2020, 16:16 PM
#190
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

I don't play Ost until I get mobile defense back.

...and that's the definition of denial.

Hint: If CEs were a bit more expensive or pios were 170, maybe you wouldn't have to wait for mobile defense?
30 Mar 2020, 16:17 PM
#191
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7


Just remember that the post started with the idea that CEs are too weak and should be buffed!!!

And you completely derailed it to the other side of the spectrum and just won't let go, despite LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON, including a very well known axis fanboi who spans dozens of posts in every thread that can nerf an allied unit have told BOTH of you that they are fine.

OP has already let it go, you should follow his example.
30 Mar 2020, 16:17 PM
#192
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863

...and that's the definition of denial.


The fact that I like to use the Puma to win means I'm in denial?

Okay dude.
30 Mar 2020, 16:18 PM
#193
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

and there is the root of the problem. To you.

No to me - to many players who stopped choosing ostheer to play with as they are completely trash in comparison to, for example, Soviets. The cheapest in game engineer is one of those things that tip the balance.
30 Mar 2020, 16:25 PM
#194
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 16:17 PMKatitof

And you completely derailed it to the other side of the spectrum and just won't let go, despite LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON, including a very well known axis fanboi who spans dozens of posts in every thread that can nerf an allied unit have told BOTH of you that they are fine.

OP has already let it go, you should follow his example.


Or maybe You should just accept different points of view? I don't feel like derailing it. More like putting some sense into it, and drawing attention to a simple fact that CEs are in a faction that is on top at the moment, and ideas such as let's buff Soviet engies are just sheer nonsense.
30 Mar 2020, 16:29 PM
#195
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7



Or maybe You should just accept different points of view? I don't feel like derailing it. More like putting some sense into it, and drawing attention to a simple fact that CEs are in a faction that is on top at the moment, and ideas such as let's buff Soviet engies are just sheer nonsense.

You are a naked man on the streets, screaming the sky is falling and are greatly surprised why no one else agrees with you.

I accept your opinion.

I simply believe you're wrong, since your arguments are running in circle and you have not shown evidence of your, quite outrageous, claim.
30 Mar 2020, 16:46 PM
#196
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 16:29 PMKatitof

I simply believe you're wrong, since your arguments are running in circle and you have not shown evidence of your, quite outrageous, claim.

It is not outrageous - it is very simple. Not every balance thread should be about dps. Not many people are used to that. There is a lot of evidence to prove what I'm writing about.
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 16:29 PMKatitof

You are a naked man on the streets, screaming the sky is falling and are greatly surprised why no one else agrees with you.

I feel quite comfortably dressed tbh :) And I don't really feel that NO ONE ELSE agrees with me. I think that if you are not in "let's buff the allies club" this is what might happen.
30 Mar 2020, 18:05 PM
#197
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1224 | Subs: 1

Alright. I'll give this thread another chance for this evening to really produce something of value. Otherwise the discussion style has deteriorated enough to close it.
30 Mar 2020, 18:50 PM
#198
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7276 | Subs: 1

Alright. I'll give this thread another chance for this evening to really produce something of value. Otherwise the discussion style has deteriorated enough to close it.


If i were the original poster and a troll i would be delighted how a small post and a poll has completely triggered people into a 10 page thread.

Also 69 (noice) votes for a total of 82% of people against doing anything on them.
30 Mar 2020, 19:21 PM
#199
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1156



If i were the original poster and a troll i would be delighted how a small post and a poll has completely triggered people into a 10 page thread.

Also 69 (noice) votes for a total of 82% of people against doing anything on them.

It might be corona related
30 Mar 2020, 19:33 PM
#200
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7



If i were the original poster and a troll i would be delighted how a small post and a poll has completely triggered people into a 10 page thread.

Also 69 (noice) votes for a total of 82% of people against doing anything on them.

If we want to be precise, original topic was exhausted and dead by first half of 3rd page.
Then someone derailed it on the other side of balance spectrum and that was real troll.
So, so far we have 7 pages that don't even address original post.
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