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The Great OKW commander balancing

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22 Dec 2019, 21:03 PM
#81
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 19:39 PMVipper
Then simply revert or partially revert the Heavy tank changes its the "safest" change...

I personally think that even if the current situation isn't ideal, it's better than the heavy tank stalling meta that we've had over the last year. Particularly because heavy tank stalling allowed players who were (way) behind to have comebacks with techless call-ins, while the current heavy tank rush meta at least requires a good early and mid game performance to pull off. In addition to that I also believe (and hope) that some additional small adjustments to timing and performance will swing the current heavy tank meta in more of a healthier spot, without needing to radically change or revert anything.


jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 19:39 PMVipper
According to Sander93's calculations:

I did forget to include Concentrated Fire in that comparison, which shaves off one shot for the Command Panther. That'd put it around 47s TTK which is roughly on par with the Tiger I.
22 Dec 2019, 21:24 PM
#82
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I personally think that even if the current situation isn't ideal, it's better than the heavy tank stalling meta that we've had over the last year.


Oh, definitely. The current system is an enormous improvement over what came before it.

A potentially novel solution:

The T-34's Ram ability has a mechanic where, if the target already has Engine Damage, it inflicts Engine Destroyed.

What if we extend this mechanic to normal snares? If you snare a vehicle that's already Engine Damaged, you inflict Engine Destroyed. (or a less extreme crit like Engine Overheated or Crew Shock).

That'd add a significant weakness to overreliance on a single vehicle: a planned ambush or infantry flank can mobility kill it, allowing you to fight it with anti-tank guns.

It'd also really help Ost in early-mid against lights.
22 Dec 2019, 21:33 PM
#83
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:24 PMLago


Oh, definitely. The current system is an enormous improvement over what came before it.

A potentially novel solution:

The T-34's Ram ability has a mechanic where, if the target already has Engine Damage, it inflicts Engine Destroyed.

What if we extend this mechanic to normal snares? If you snare a vehicle that's already Engine Damaged, you inflict Engine Destroyed. (or a less extreme crit like Engine Overheated or Crew Shock).


Engine destroy for ramming a snared tank makes sense, but just throwing another snare at it shouldn't be the same. I think having to sacrifice a tank should get you more than throwing another at grenade/faust
22 Dec 2019, 21:53 PM
#84
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


I personally think that even if the current situation isn't ideal, it's better than the heavy tank stalling meta that we've had over the last year. Particularly because heavy tank stalling allowed players who were (way) behind to have comebacks with techless call-ins, while the current heavy tank rush meta at least requires a good early and mid game performance to pull off. In addition to that I also believe (and hope) that some additional small adjustments to timing and performance will swing the current heavy tank meta in more of a healthier spot, without needing to radically change or revert anything.

Heavy tank stalling went out the window with introducing tech cost...CP change and AOE buffs is what creates the issues.
22 Dec 2019, 21:59 PM
#85
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Engine destroy for ramming a snared tank makes sense, but just throwing another snare at it shouldn't be the same. I think having to sacrifice a tank should get you more than throwing another at grenade/faust


It could be Engine Overheat (so it wears off after a few seconds) so you have to keep expending snares to keep the tank controlled. Not cost efficient against multiple vehicles, but you could lock down one you've killed the support of long enough to kill it.


You could also just make the engine damage of heavy tanks slower so AT guns can keep up. Currently they've got enough health to limp away, which makes AT guns less effective than they are against snared mediums (which they can kill before they leave range).

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:53 PMVipper
Heavy tank stalling went out the window with introducing tech cost...CP change and AOE buffs is what creates the issues.


Did you miss the World Championship?
22 Dec 2019, 22:03 PM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:59 PMLago

...
Did you miss the World Championship?

If the CP remained the same and only tech requirement where introduced Super heavy stalling would not be viable so I am not sure if you understood my post.

It is the changes in CP and the new AOE profiles that have created the "super heavy meta" which is different from "super heavy" stalling.
22 Dec 2019, 22:05 PM
#87
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:03 PMVipper
If the CP remained the same and only tech requirement where introduced Super heavy stalling would not be viable so I am not sure if you understood my post.

It is the changes in CP and the new AOE profiles that have created the "super heavy meta" which is different from "super heavy" stalling.


Heavy stalling probably wouldn't be a thing if they'd stayed at CP13.

But as we've never had tech tying with the classic CP caps, it's all hypothetical.
22 Dec 2019, 22:17 PM
#88
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



That doesn't make sense. The Tiger I is a lategame unit that relies on good early and mid game performance to even arrive because it costs so much to call in. What do the early game adjustments have to do with that? It's not a crutch unit for OKW, it's a crutch unit for facing the IS-2 as it's the only reliable counter. And OKW's Tiger I is preferred over Ostheer's one because OKW with its Puma is more reliable against light vehicles.

The WCS stats do seem to support this (although not definitively so of course, because of very low sample size) as Grand Offensive was picked in 66% of games against Soviets and only in 36% of games against USF. So players apparently do not feel like the Tiger I is the only option for OKW, just that it's the only good option to face the IS-2. The Tiger I is a very good unit, but not "OKW's only crutch".


That is not true. Armored assault was picked once against OKW and Shock Rifle 4 times. Conversely Guard Motor (9) and Urban defense (8) were more popular picks. Defensive tactics and lend lease saw action as well.

Soviets main issue was dealing with mechanized comps.

22 Dec 2019, 22:47 PM
#89
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:05 PMLago


Heavy stalling probably wouldn't be a thing if they'd stayed at CP13.

But as we've never had tech tying with the classic CP caps, it's all hypothetical.

Heavy stalling translates into "stockpiling" fuel instead of investing it in tech so that one can call in Super heavies a soon as they become available and replaced them. If one has to spend that fuel on tech one can not "stockpile" that fuel.

There is nothing hypothetical here and I guess we both agree that "heavy stalling" went out the window as soon as Super heavies go tied to tech.
22 Dec 2019, 22:57 PM
#90
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:47 PMVipper
Heavy stalling translates into "stockpiling" fuel instead of investing it in tech so that one can call in Super heavies a soon as they become available and replaced them. If one has to spend that fuel on tech one can not "stockpile" that fuel.

There is nothing hypothetical here and I guess we both agree that "heavy stalling" went out the window as soon as Super heavies go tied to tech.


Stalling for a heavy is waiting until you've got the resources for one instead of building something else.

Go play semantics elsewhere.
23 Dec 2019, 00:51 AM
#91
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:57 PMLago


Stalling for a heavy is waiting until you've got the resources for one instead of building something else.


"Stalling for heavy" strategy is clearly described in the patch notes:

"Heavy Tank Call-In Changes for all Factions

We felt the strategy of stalling for a heavy tank call-in without teching stagnated gameplay and was too punishing for players who did tech."

The moment Super heavy tank got a tech cost the strategy no longer exits.


jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 22:57 PMLago

Go play semantics elsewhere.

Pls stop being toxic/provoking and turning this into a personal issue. I have not insulted you in anyway and I am not play the "I am right you wrong game", I am simply clarifying things.
23 Dec 2019, 03:29 AM
#92
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:24 PMLago


Oh, definitely. The current system is an enormous improvement over what came before it.

A potentially novel solution:

The T-34's Ram ability has a mechanic where, if the target already has Engine Damage, it inflicts Engine Destroyed.

What if we extend this mechanic to normal snares? If you snare a vehicle that's already Engine Damaged, you inflict Engine Destroyed. (or a less extreme crit like Engine Overheated or Crew Shock).

That'd add a significant weakness to overreliance on a single vehicle: a planned ambush or infantry flank can mobility kill it, allowing you to fight it with anti-tank guns.

It'd also really help Ost in early-mid against lights.


How would this help Ost? If anything, it makes Ost even trickier late game

The anonying allies LV are characterised by how hard for Ost to hit them under a good player. Faust is worse snare imo, because of long load times and line of sight.

In mid-late games, Ost vehicles need more active invovlement. Putting additional status is a negative.
23 Dec 2019, 03:33 AM
#93
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 21:53 PMVipper

Heavy tank stalling went out the window with introducing tech cost...CP change and AOE buffs is what creates the issues.


The AOE buffs help Tiger/Axis most.
Affording a Tiger before a P4, helps Axis stay in the games better.
Reverting AOE makes Axis suffer more

I think the issues being mid-late games, Axis do struggle dealing with Allies infantry supported by 60Td.

Anyway, it is either rush a P4 and call in a heavy later
Or stall for Tiger and supplement with P4 later.

I dont think it is that bad?
23 Dec 2019, 04:16 AM
#94
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 00:51 AMVipper


The moment Super heavy tank got a tech cost the strategy no longer exits.


It "doesn't exist" because it became an even stronger tactic than it was before. Now you have to wait even less time than you did. I don't know what you're clarifying here
23 Dec 2019, 10:05 AM
#95
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



It "doesn't exist" because it became an even stronger tactic than it was before. Now you have to wait even less time than you did. I don't know what you're clarifying here

You are confusing the "heavy stalling" with "heavy meta", the dominant tactic before and after the patch.

Read my post and the definition of "heavy stalling" "for not teching heavy" in the patch notes.
23 Dec 2019, 10:10 AM
#96
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 03:33 AMmrgame2


The AOE buffs help Tiger/Axis most.
Affording a Tiger before a P4, helps Axis stay in the games better.
Reverting AOE makes Axis suffer more

I think the issues being mid-late games, Axis do struggle dealing with Allies infantry supported by 60Td.

Anyway, it is either rush a P4 and call in a heavy later
Or stall for Tiger and supplement with P4 later.

I dont think it is that bad?

The problem is that now the best strategy is to get a heavy tank narrowing the number of commanders used.

It more a diversity issue than balance issue. Either this vehicles become stock or they should become less attractive.
23 Dec 2019, 10:22 AM
#97
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 72



The problem isn’t even the IS2. Say your opponent goes Guard motor and has mark target, double T34/85s, a SU85, two maxims, a Guards squad and 4 7man Cons behind thicc sandbags. Good luck attacking this with a Sturmpioneer, 4 Volks, a couple P4s and maybe an Obers squad.

Soviet late game economy is too good.


Gasp, how dare an opponent have nearly twice the manpower invested in troops as well as be on the defensive and have good odds against my übermensch?! Heresy!
23 Dec 2019, 12:12 PM
#98
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Gasp, how dare an opponent have nearly twice the manpower invested in troops as well as be on the defensive and have good odds against my übermensch?! Heresy!


I guess everyone thinks of themselves as that Carthaginian general who destroyed a larger more well supplied force with a smaller one.
23 Dec 2019, 12:26 PM
#99
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2019, 10:10 AMVipper

The problem is that now the best strategy is to get a heavy tank narrowing the number of commanders used.

It more a diversity issue than balance issue. Either this vehicles become stock or they should become less attractive.


Can't we just nerf the OKW tiger and keep the OST one as is. I mean T4 is a death sentence for OST but OKW can still get the KT with any doc.
23 Dec 2019, 12:28 PM
#100
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



The problem isn’t even the IS2. Say your opponent goes Guard motor and has mark target, double T34/85s, a SU85, two maxims, a Guards squad and 4 7man Cons behind thicc sandbags. Good luck attacking this with a Sturmpioneer, 4 Volks, a couple P4s and maybe an Obers squad.

Soviet late game economy is too good.


Soo, that's about 600+ fuel and 3000 manpower(rounded) vs 290 fuel and 2000 manpower(rounded).

And you think that's economy?
Perhaps not suiciding 3-4 squads and not letting opponent capture your fuel and holding it for the whole time might be issue here and not the economy?
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