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russian armor

reduce pop for soviet tanks and infantry

16 Nov 2019, 21:02 PM
#21
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2019, 20:35 PMCODGUY
I think the pop count is way too high on most medium and above armor regardless of faction.

19 pop for a Churchill is stupid
18 pop for a Panther snd Comet is dumb
16 pop for Jackson and Firefly is also dumb
15 pop for a Jagpanzer IV is really dumb


I do think this is true. Especially in team games where ressources are flowing and you often will reach the 100 population mark, there is no point of building mediums anymore. Just because TDs, Panthers, ad all the heavy tanks are way more pop efficient. Some of them cost barely more pop than a medium.
16 Nov 2019, 21:36 PM
#22
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Their early performance is fine. Combat Engineers got Conscript Mosins last patch, giving them around 10% to 20% more dps at mid/long range.

They're actually slightly better per model than Conscripts before vet 1 (42,5 purchase cost with 1 RA versus 40 purchase cost with 1,09 RA). This allows making multiple Engineers in the early game without too many drawbacks (Brosras gets up to 3, for example). This is also why you shouldn't merge cons outside of combat situations.

A better change would be to give both Combat Engineers and Pioneers lower RA at vet 3, which Sappers/RET's/Sturms already get. Then they can keep some combat relevance later on.

I wouldn't say CE are terribly good at any point except with a flamethrower as they really are not a threat to anything, even weapon crews. And I'm not sure that a vet locked durability buff on a unit that quite frankly has no business being in the front anyways wouldn't change much (not that armour would really either but I'd tie it to tech instead of vet)

Idk CE are so entirely underwhelming at every point and in every scenario, knowing you NEED to have them eating up pop while really bringing nothing to the match is kinda depressing. Especially with them being a starter unit and needing to shell out 160mp off the cuff for infantry and then running into things like sturms in your first engagement. But that's kinda factional whining at that point I guess
16 Nov 2019, 22:09 PM
#23
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned


I do think this is true. Especially in team games where ressources are flowing and you often will reach the 100 population mark, there is no point of building mediums anymore. Just because TDs, Panthers, ad all the heavy tanks are way more pop efficient. Some of them cost barely more pop than a medium.


Not only have certain soviet tanks too high pop. But infantry as u said is not worth taking in late game.
For that reason I suicide always all my snipers (9 pop each) in late game just to get more tanks.

Infantry should be 1 pop, tanks 3.
just like in any other normal strategy game.

Also what bugs me a lot is the reduced mp, when having more units.
17 Nov 2019, 01:46 AM
#24
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


I wouldn't say CE are terribly good at any point except with a flamethrower as they really are not a threat to anything, even weapon crews. And I'm not sure that a vet locked durability buff on a unit that quite frankly has no business being in the front anyways wouldn't change much (not that armour would really either but I'd tie it to tech instead of vet)

Idk CE are so entirely underwhelming at every point and in every scenario, knowing you NEED to have them eating up pop while really bringing nothing to the match is kinda depressing. Especially with them being a starter unit and needing to shell out 160mp off the cuff for infantry and then running into things like sturms in your first engagement. But that's kinda factional whining at that point I guess


I disagree, I think CE are very decent now-maybe even slightly too good but that is a topic for another thread.


Regarding OP, the T-34 did used to have a lower pop cap and a lower fuel cost for more or less flavor reasons like the ones you cited. However, it was deemed too cost effective and subsequently nerfed.
Honestly I dont feel any of the units you cited warrant a pop reduction with their current performance.
17 Nov 2019, 11:53 AM
#25
avatar of T.R. Marcel

Posts: 26

The whole topic is garbage. If you lower the popcap of all SU Units, it would be insanely op because all you had to do was wait, build 100 popcap and charge without them having a chance.

I often thought about that allies should be inferior but more in number, but just think about how incredibly hard to balance this would be. How do you want to manage that a Tiger can beat 5 Shermans? The Sherman would need to cost like 40 fuel and would be on the field by 8 mins... much fun waiting for a tiger when the enemy has already 4 shermans on the field.

This shit would literally break the game into some "mod" spam-shit.
17 Nov 2019, 15:44 PM
#26
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
if u have 1 axis tank vs 1 soviet tank and the axis tank is better isnt that an unfair fight? The soviet tank has to be lower in overall cost to compromise for its weakness. Or u make the ggame 3vs2 ratio. Usa, Brit, Sov vs Wehr, Obk.
T34/85 and Panther are almost same pop cost. So when both player reach 100 pop It's about the same Tank number fighting each other. It's obvious who will win.
17 Nov 2019, 15:50 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2019, 15:44 PMRitter
...
T34/85 and Panther are almost same pop cost. So when both player reach 100 pop It's about the same Tank number fighting each other. It's obvious who will win.

T-34/85 pop is 14
Panther pop is 18

They are not the "almost same pop cost" it is x129% higher.
17 Nov 2019, 17:05 PM
#28
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356


I wouldn't say CE are terribly good at any point except with a flamethrower as they really are not a threat to anything, even weapon crews. And I'm not sure that a vet locked durability buff on a unit that quite frankly has no business being in the front anyways wouldn't change much (not that armour would really either but I'd tie it to tech instead of vet)

Idk CE are so entirely underwhelming at every point and in every scenario, knowing you NEED to have them eating up pop while really bringing nothing to the match is kinda depressing. Especially with them being a starter unit and needing to shell out 160mp off the cuff for infantry and then running into things like sturms in your first engagement. But that's kinda factional whining at that point I guess


Uhh 30 muni general purpose mines that litter the field in high level play, and handily win games?

Did you think this post through?
17 Nov 2019, 17:17 PM
#29
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Uhh 30 muni general purpose mines that litter the field in high level play, and handily win games?

Did you think this post through?

The same mines okw, brits and ass engine or field defense usf can lay. Hardly unique or redeeming.
All the other units can actually bring something to the fight and earn their pop cap.
17 Nov 2019, 17:31 PM
#30
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356


The same mines okw, brits and ass engine or field defense usf can lay. Hardly unique or redeeming.
All the other units can actually bring something to the fight and earn their pop cap.


The difference being they're much cheaper, t0, and non-doctrinal respectively, while being in an army that doesn't have a significant muni demand.
17 Nov 2019, 17:45 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



The difference being they're much cheaper, t0, and non-doctrinal respectively, while being in an army that doesn't have a significant muni demand.

But they do have pop cap demands. I'd sooner pay more pm and get something for it than have my popcap being eaten by noncombat units

Alao you are out of date if you don't think the Soviet have a muni demand anymore. Oorah, and molitovs have been increased in cost, penal ptrs and satchels are a thing, 7 man cons as well as many doctrinal things.

But to list non doc units that have them: CE, sturms, sappers and iirc the wehr halftrack has them now too yes? Again. Hardly unique and hardly redeeming.

Regardless this is off topic. If you wish to continue you may make a thread
17 Nov 2019, 18:46 PM
#32
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356


But they do have pop cap demands. I'd sooner pay more pm and get something for it than have my popcap being eaten by noncombat units

So sacrifice them and build a conscript squad?

Alao you are out of date if you don't think the Soviet have a muni demand anymore. Oorah, and molitovs have been increased in cost, penal ptrs and satchels are a thing, 7 man cons as well as many doctrinal things.

But to list non doc units that have them: CE, sturms, sappers and iirc the wehr halftrack has them now too yes? Again. Hardly unique and hardly redeeming.


WCS is live right now. Soviets seem to have 3-4 times the number of mines as the other factions. Are you saying that what these players should really be building is more PTRS, and Oorahing?

Regardless this is off topic. If you wish to continue you may make a thread


Seems to be exactly on topic. If you think it is, then why didn't you make a separate thread on CE being bad?
17 Nov 2019, 18:48 PM
#33
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
its about pop and fuel cost
17 Nov 2019, 19:08 PM
#34
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2019, 20:35 PMCODGUY
I think the pop count is way too high on most medium and above armor regardless of faction.

19 pop for a Churchill is stupid
18 pop for a Panther snd Comet is dumb
16 pop for Jackson and Firefly is also dumb
15 pop for a Jagpanzer IV is really dumb


Personally I would like to see Pop count for units lowered for all factions.
17 Nov 2019, 23:33 PM
#35
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Nov 2019, 22:09 PMRitter


Not only have certain soviet tanks too high pop. But infantry as u said is not worth taking in late game.
For that reason I suicide always all my snipers (9 pop each) in late game just to get more tanks.

Infantry should be 1 pop, tanks 3.
just like in any other normal strategy game.

Also what bugs me a lot is the reduced mp, when having more units.


Are you implying that you get more snipers than one?
18 Nov 2019, 00:00 AM
#36
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
and sniper and 38mm mortar pop is ridiculous high, like t34. Lower it to 6
18 Nov 2019, 00:04 AM
#37
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Welp. After today I don't think anyone is going to think soviets are struggling

/thread
18 Nov 2019, 00:04 AM
#38
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
what do u mean, after today?
18 Nov 2019, 01:03 AM
#39
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2019, 00:04 AMRitter
what do u mean, after today?


Soviets won all the games they were picked in the final rounds of the WCS tournament. I don't have a full list, so they might have lost one in the lower brackets, but they won 4 out 4 games they were picked in the final, and the fifth was USF rear echelon spam. I don't think there was a single axis win in either the final or 3rd place decider.
18 Nov 2019, 01:15 AM
#40
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
where can I watch this?
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