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Jackson Nerf vs Making Panther Doctrinal

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4 Nov 2019, 21:46 PM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6373 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 21:41 PMCODGUY


... the Puma a micro-Jackson. I'd say they have basically the same preformance characteristics being highly mobile lightly armored anti-armor platforms.

One to provide stats, like accuracy and penetration values to back at that claim? Because the 2 unit have completely different weapon profiles.
4 Nov 2019, 21:51 PM
#82
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 21:46 PMVipper

One to provide stats, like accuracy and penetration values to back at that claim? Because the 2 unit have completely different weapon profiles.


I'm not trying to say they're exactly the same but they have similar characteristics and fill a similar role. The difference is the scale at which they preform. The Puma is like the Jackson of light vehicles. The Jackson is like a large Puma for use against medium and heavy armor
4 Nov 2019, 21:57 PM
#83
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6373 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 21:51 PMCODGUY


I'm not trying to say they're exactly the same but they have similar characteristics and fill a similar role. The difference is the scale at which they preform. The Puma is like the Jackson of light vehicles. The Jackson is like a large Puma for use against medium and heavy armor

Not really both Puma is flanker since it needs to close in to get good penetration and accuracy or attack side or rear/side armor.

Puma has the same penetration as T-34/76 at max range.

M36 can snipe all day long and have near 100% chance to hit and penetrate from range 60.
4 Nov 2019, 22:01 PM
#84
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 21:57 PMVipper

Not really both Puma is flanker since it needs to close in to get good penetration and accuracy or attack side or rear/side armor.

Puma has less penetration than T-34/76 at max range.

M36 can snipe all day long and have near 100% chance to hit and penetrate from range 60.


But when you're talking about light vehciles is there any light vehcile that can bounce a hit from a Puma at any range?
4 Nov 2019, 22:02 PM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6373 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 22:01 PMCODGUY


But when you're talking about light vehciles is there any light vehcile that can bounce a hit from a Puma at any range?

You want me to provide you with the chance of Puma hitting a light vehicle when stationary and on the move and then do the same with M36 and medium? or can you calculate it yourself?
4 Nov 2019, 22:07 PM
#86
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 543

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 21:51 PMCODGUY
I'm not trying to say they're exactly the same but they have similar characteristics and fill a similar role. The difference is the scale at which they preform. The Puma is like the Jackson of light vehicles. The Jackson is like a large Puma for use against medium and heavy armor


Like Vipper said; not really.

Firstly, the Puma has only 50 range, compared to the M36's 60 - conveniently, 60 range is the same as (almost) all ATGs, so the puma needs to be in danger of those to fire at a tank, whereas the M36 will be just at the edge of an ATG's range.

Secondly, at max range (50 vs. 60), the Puma has 80 pen, meaning that it'll bounce 39.5% of the time against even the "lightly" armored M36 (80 pen vs. 130 armor), whereas the M36 will pen even a panther's front armor 84.6% of the time (i.e. 15.4% bounce chance).

Thirdly, while the puma is more mobile, it has 0.5 moving accuracy multiplier, whereas the M36 has a 0.75 mult - that's 50% more accuracy when on the move. That makes the Puma pretty bad when chasing vehicles, whereas the M36 doesn't really have that problem.


So, the Puma needs to be in ATG range to hit anything, has more than twice the bounce rate against fairly lightly armored vehicles, and is 50% worse when moving. Interestingly, those three categories are the ones people want the M36 nerfed in (range, pen at max range, moving acc.).


edit

Since it'll be brought up that I'm comparing an LV's pen vs. a medium to a medium's pen vs. a medium, the M36's chance to pen a Tiger (heavy) at max range is 73.3% (26.7% bounce). That's still a 57% better chance compared to a Puma vs. an M36. That results in an even bigger effective DPS difference when factoring in that 50% better moving accuracy.
4 Nov 2019, 22:22 PM
#87
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2717

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 19:59 PMCODGUY
A tank cannot effectively counter a tank destroyer...OMG! Get out the nerf hammer!


Infantry can counter their counter (machine guns) with clever maneuvering.
Tanks can counter their counter (anti-tank guns) with clever maneuvering.
Casemate TDs can be countered by what they counter (tanks) if those tanks maneuver cleverly.

The Jackson cannot be similarly outmaneuvered because of its 0.75 moving accuracy and its turret.

Is it wrong for a tank destroyer to be that flexible? No. But we shouldn't pretend that it's not a huge advantage over the SU-85 and Firefly.
4 Nov 2019, 23:44 PM
#88
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3210 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 22:22 PMLago


Infantry can counter their counter (machine guns) with clever maneuvering.
Tanks can counter their counter (anti-tank guns) with clever maneuvering.
Casemate TDs can be countered by what they counter (tanks) if those tanks maneuver cleverly.

The Jackson cannot be similarly outmaneuvered because of its 0.75 moving accuracy and its turret.

Is it wrong for a tank destroyer to be that flexible? No. But we shouldn't pretend that it's not a huge advantage over the SU-85 and Firefly.


And that's before factoring in the crew who can repair crits (and the tank itself) or HVAP which makes the Jackson a reliable heavy smasher too.

Ive said it before, the Jackson just has too much going for it.
5 Nov 2019, 00:44 AM
#89
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 22:22 PMLago


Infantry can counter their counter (machine guns) with clever maneuvering.
Tanks can counter their counter (anti-tank guns) with clever maneuvering.
Casemate TDs can be countered by what they counter (tanks) if those tanks maneuver cleverly.

The Jackson cannot be similarly outmaneuvered because of its 0.75 moving accuracy and its turret.

Is it wrong for a tank destroyer to be that flexible? No. But we shouldn't pretend that it's not a huge advantage over the SU-85 and Firefly.


I don't think it's wrong at all. The Jackson is the best tank destroyer in the game, no argument from me on that point. I just don't see a problem with it being the best TD in the game, I mean one unit has to be the best TD right? I think the real problem isn't that it's the best TD in the game so much as it's the best TD and belongs to USF.
5 Nov 2019, 00:47 AM
#90
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 837

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 00:44 AMCODGUY


I don't think it's wrong at all. The Jackson is the best tank destroyer in the game, no argument from me on that point. I just don't see a problem with it being the best TD in the game, I mean one unit has to be the best TD right? I think the real problem isn't that it's the best TD in the game so much as it's the best TD and belongs to USF.


I don’t think it’s wrong at all. Fallschrimjägers are the best infantry in the game, no argument from me on that point. I just don’t see a problem with them being the best infantry in the game, I mean one unit has to be the best infantry right? I think the real problem isn’t that they’re the best infantry in the game so much as they’re the best infantry and belong to OKW.
5 Nov 2019, 01:10 AM
#91
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573



I don’t think it’s wrong at all. Fallschrimjägers are the best infantry in the game, no argument from me on that point. I just don’t see a problem with them being the best infantry in the game, I mean one unit has to be the best infantry right? I think the real problem isn’t that they’re the best infantry in the game so much as they’re the best infantry and belong to OKW.


Fallschrimjagers wouldn't be a problem if the faction they were a part of didn't also have the best engineer unit, mainline infantry, artillery, light, medium and heavy armor in the game. OKW has always been overkill.
5 Nov 2019, 01:12 AM
#92
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 32

The argument for the Jackson's superiority made sense when the USF sincerely struggled with any sort of anti-tank duties in earlier versions of the game. Now that we have the Pershing seeing more use, and their handheld AT options being more viable, I feel like it needs to be toned down. I'd support a 50 range Jackson.
5 Nov 2019, 01:21 AM
#93
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3210 | Subs: 1

The argument for the Jackson's superiority made sense when the USF sincerely struggled with any sort of anti-tank duties in earlier versions of the game. Now that we have the Pershing seeing more use, and their handheld AT options being more viable, I feel like it needs to be toned down. I'd support a 50 range Jackson.

50 range would require a heafty price decrease or it'll be a snack for panthers.

Is there a way to change range on shell swap? Could have shells for fighting medium armour that are 50 range and great accuracy for mobility and shells that have 60 range low dps and accuracy but high pen and damage.

The only way I can see the Jackson working all the jobs it needs to annd not being over powered is by separating the roles so it doesn't do them all at once

Or a roster change somewhere.
5 Nov 2019, 02:06 AM
#94
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573

The argument for the Jackson's superiority made sense when the USF sincerely struggled with any sort of anti-tank duties in earlier versions of the game. Now that we have the Pershing seeing more use, and their handheld AT options being more viable, I feel like it needs to be toned down. I'd support a 50 range Jackson.


The Pershing is only available in ONE doctrine. What is more viable about USF "handheld at options" exactly? Are you talking about doctrinal Rangers?
5 Nov 2019, 02:07 AM
#95
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573

The argument for the Jackson's superiority made sense when the USF sincerely struggled with any sort of anti-tank duties in earlier versions of the game. Now that we have the Pershing seeing more use, and their handheld AT options being more viable, I feel like it needs to be toned down. I'd support a 50 range Jackson.


The Pershing is only available in ONE doctrine. What is more viable about USF "handheld at options" exactly? Are you talking about doctrinal Rangers?
5 Nov 2019, 02:15 AM
#96
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Nov 2019, 22:02 PMVipper

You want me to provide you with the chance of Puma hitting a light vehicle when stationary and on the move and then do the same with M36 and medium? or can you calculate it yourself?


What makes you think numbers matter to CODGUY?
5 Nov 2019, 02:28 AM
#97
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 01:10 AMCODGUY


Fallschrimjagers wouldn't be a problem if the faction they were a part of didn't also have the best engineer unit, mainline infantry, artillery, light, medium and heavy armor in the game. OKW has always been overkill.


You mean assault engineers, Riflemen, Pack Howitzer, T70, T34-85, and the Pershing? Yeah having all of those in OKW would be overkill indeed.

Let's also pretend that OKW doesn't have the worst AT gun, 2nd worst HMG, a lack of flamethowers, handheld AT and caches, in addition to the highest tech costs in the game.

Oh if you meant rocket artillery, then yeah I agree that the walking stuka is indeed the best rocket arty in the game.
5 Nov 2019, 03:13 AM
#98
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573



You mean assault engineers, Riflemen, Pack Howitzer, T70, T34-85, and the Pershing? Yeah having all of those in OKW would be overkill indeed.

Let's also pretend that OKW doesn't have the worst AT gun, 2nd worst HMG, a lack of flamethowers, handheld AT and caches, in addition to the highest tech costs in the game.

Oh if you meant rocket artillery, then yeah I agree that the walking stuka is indeed the best rocket arty in the game.


I'm not going to get into this too much but OKW is the one faction you can sit on your ass with and play as sloppy as you want for the first 15 minutes of the game and still pull off a win. It's got more get out of jail free cards than the Rothschild family.
5 Nov 2019, 03:19 AM
#99
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 837

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 03:13 AMCODGUY


I'm not going to get into this too much but OKW is the one faction you can sit on your ass with and play as sloppy as you want for the first 15 minutes of the game and still pull off a win. It's got more get out of jail free cards than the Rothschild family.


Maybe at your level 1500 rank that’s possible/accurate.
5 Nov 2019, 04:57 AM
#100
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573



Maybe at your level 1500 rank that’s possible/accurate.


I thought I was 1300 rank?
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