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Jackson Nerf vs Making Panther Doctrinal

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5 Nov 2019, 13:11 PM
#121
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

I hope u do know normal mines already one shoot LV right

Normal mines don't even one-shot Kubelwagen, they do one-shot SOV M3 though.
5 Nov 2019, 13:17 PM
#122
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963


Normal mines don't even one-shot Kubelwagen, they do one-shot SOV M3 though.
forgot to add 2 fixed it
5 Nov 2019, 13:36 PM
#123
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 00:44 AMCODGUY
I don't think it's wrong at all. The Jackson is the best tank destroyer in the game, no argument from me on that point. I just don't see a problem with it being the best TD in the game, I mean one unit has to be the best TD right? I think the real problem isn't that it's the best TD in the game so much as it's the best TD and belongs to USF.


The Jackson's design neither presents any positional counterplay nor allows the opponent to just buy a bigger gun (commanders notwithstanding). You can only counterplay it with non-vehicular AT. Otherwise it can only be outmacroed.

The Jackson's original design didn't have this problem: it cost 125 FU and had 480 HP, meaning it had to play carefully at range like the other two TDs. Spamming Jacksons wasn't really an option: because of their fragility you needed something else to defend them.

This was changed as a balance necessity: USF's shitty tech structure was full of holes thanks to Relic's ~2014 obsession with shipping factions with huge gaps in their basic tool roster. That change made USF functional in larger gamemodes, but it also made the Jackson what it is today.

While USF's tech structure has improved, I don't think you could just revert the Jackson to its better designed but less balanced earlier incarnation. What USF needs is a full review of the rest of its AT roster (currently entirely geared against LVs for some inconceiveable reason) and then changes to be made to its other units so the Jackson isn't the only mediums-up nondoc AT tool.

Then, and only then, could they look at turning the Jackson back into the nimble sniper it was designed as.
5 Nov 2019, 13:41 PM
#124
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

Jackson is like a sniper infantry from USF which have 3models, running all the time, counter all other sniper easily and can self heal on field, can fast turn the body and has better accuracy than all other snipers.

and this for only 370mp.

this is Jackson compared to all other TDs
5 Nov 2019, 14:06 PM
#125
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

Jackson is like a sniper infantry from USF which have 3models, running all the time, counter all other sniper easily and can self heal on field, can fast turn the body and has better accuracy than all other snipers.

and this for only 370mp.

this is Jackson compared to all other TDs


How do you have better accuracy than a unit that always hits?

If you're looking for a non-tank metaphor, it's an ATG with a turret.
5 Nov 2019, 14:11 PM
#126
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 14:06 PMLago


How do you have better accuracy than a unit that always hits?

If you're looking for a non-tank metaphor, it's an ATG with a turret.


Even Sniper misses...(more in houses and much more on retreating units)
5 Nov 2019, 14:35 PM
#127
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2607 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 13:36 PMLago


The Jackson's design neither presents any positional counterplay nor allows the opponent to just buy a bigger gun (commanders notwithstanding). You can only counterplay it with non-vehicular AT. Otherwise it can only be outmacroed.



Then don't buy bigger but smarter, Stug in pair, pak40 or jpz4 perfectly counter Jackson.
5 Nov 2019, 14:36 PM
#128
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13758 | Subs: 7

I hope u do know 2 normal mines already one shoot LV right


I don't think you even know what ONE shot means.
5 Nov 2019, 14:54 PM
#129
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 293 | Subs: 1

Bashing someone's opinion by refering to his/her rank, as presented in this thread, is rude.

One can protect his SU-85 or Firefly with mines on the flanks, you can't do that as USF because you don't have mines available unless you pick a right doctrine. Also both SOV and Brits have ATGs with decent penetration that can support you and provide extra DPS. USF ATG will ask you for MU tax and even after you pay that you may or may not pen axis armour. This means that if you make Jackson vulnerable to flanking or just nerf it in other way, USF is dead in lategame. As USF you don't have any reliable lategame AT platform other than Jackson unless you pick a doctrine with Rangers and spend 150 MU on 3 bazookas, this should be good enough for P4, but not for the MetaTiger that you see every game now.

I say Panther and Jackson are okay as they are now. Both are hard to kill, both are very mobile and costly to replace if one is lost.

Also listing T34/85 as the best medium is a joke lol. It fights infantry exactly the same as T34/76 while being 40FU more expensive, taking longer to vet and it still doesn't pen P4 reliably.


Purely a L2P issue on your side. Virtually all good players agree that the T34-85 is the best (or at the very least top 3) medium. Its cost-effectiveness is through the roof since it is highly capable at fighting infantry as well as bullying other mediums. Its health pool also makes it a great choice for taking on the KT.

You might not realise that it has 800 health, more armour, and a lot more pen than the T34-76, but that really matters in tank vs tank fights. Statistically it has approximately a 90% chance of winning 1vs1 against an Ost p4 (significantly higher % chance to pen + 25% more health), which costs 30mp and 10 fuel less. There's literally no medium as cost-efficient as the T34-85.

Ost has plenty of counters to the T34-85, but that doesn't change the fact that the T34-85, in and of itself, is a top-of-class unit. If Ost had a unit that good, you and CODGUY would have quit the game already. Ost P4s already have a slight edge vs Shermans, T34-76s, and Cromwells, but the P4 still gets blown away by T34-85s.

The OKW p4 has high armour that gives it a very light repair burden and great survivability, so certainly an argument can be made that it's the best medium. But dissing the T34-85 simply means you're a really bad player who doesn't understand how incredibly cost-efficient the T34-85 is.
5 Nov 2019, 15:06 PM
#130
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 838

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 13:36 PMLago


The Jackson's design neither presents any positional counterplay nor allows the opponent to just buy a bigger gun (commanders notwithstanding). You can only counterplay it with non-vehicular AT. Otherwise it can only be outmacroed.

The Jackson's original design didn't have this problem: it cost 125 FU and had 480 HP, meaning it had to play carefully at range like the other two TDs. Spamming Jacksons wasn't really an option: because of their fragility you needed something else to defend them.

This was changed as a balance necessity: USF's shitty tech structure was full of holes thanks to Relic's ~2014 obsession with shipping factions with huge gaps in their basic tool roster. That change made USF functional in larger gamemodes, but it also made the Jackson what it is today.

While USF's tech structure has improved, I don't think you could just revert the Jackson to its better designed but less balanced earlier incarnation. What USF needs is a full review of the rest of its AT roster (currently entirely geared against LVs for some inconceiveable reason) and then changes to be made to its other units so the Jackson isn't the only mediums-up nondoc AT tool.

Then, and only then, could they look at turning the Jackson back into the nimble sniper it was designed as.


Perfectly said.
5 Nov 2019, 15:34 PM
#131
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 662



Purely a L2P issue on your side. Virtually all good players agree that the T34-85 is the best (or at the very least top 3) medium. Its cost-effectiveness is through the roof since it is highly capable at fighting infantry as well as bullying other mediums. Its health pool also makes it a great choice for taking on the KT.

You might not realise that it has 800 health, more armour, and a lot more pen than the T34-76, but that really matters in tank vs tank fights. Statistically it has approximately a 90% chance of winning 1vs1 against an Ost p4 (significantly higher % chance to pen + 25% more health), which costs 30mp and 10 fuel less. There's literally no medium as cost-efficient as the T34-85.

Ost has plenty of counters to the T34-85, but that doesn't change the fact that the T34-85, in and of itself, is a top-of-class unit. If Ost had a unit that good, you and CODGUY would have quit the game already. Ost P4s already have a slight edge vs Shermans, T34-76s, and Cromwells, but the P4 still gets blown away by T34-85s.

The OKW p4 has high armour that gives it a very light repair burden and great survivability, so certainly an argument can be made that it's the best medium. But dissing the T34-85 simply means you're a really bad player who doesn't understand how incredibly cost-efficient the T34-85 is.

+1
5 Nov 2019, 15:35 PM
#132
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

Even Sniper misses...(more in houses and much more on retreating units


The sniper misses retreating units. It hasn't missed houses since SBP.
5 Nov 2019, 15:50 PM
#133
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6376 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 13:36 PMLago

...
While USF's tech structure has improved, I don't think you could just revert the Jackson to its better designed but less balanced earlier incarnation...

That is just theory and reverting the all changes is simply not the only option.

There many changes that can be tested on the M36 that would allow the unit to counter Super heavies but also leave room for other USF units to be used.

Any change to m36 should come with changes to Super heavies and other call in vehicles.
5 Nov 2019, 17:07 PM
#134
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1676

Give jacksons 70 range. Reduce its HP pool to 480. Call it a day.

Vs jtiger or elephant will not win unless kites, vs mediums will have to keep very long distance.

If needed reduce its speed also
5 Nov 2019, 17:42 PM
#135
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6308 | Subs: 1

Give jacksons 70 range. Reduce its HP pool to 480. Call it a day.

Vs jtiger or elephant will not win unless kites, vs mediums will have to keep very long distance.

If needed reduce its speed also


Elephant with more mobility and turret. This does not even count as brainstorming at this point.
5 Nov 2019, 18:21 PM
#136
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

Purely a L2P issue on your side. Virtually all good players agree that the T34-85 is the best (or at the very least top 3) medium. Its cost-effectiveness is through the roof since it is highly capable at fighting infantry as well as bullying other mediums. Its health pool also makes it a great choice for taking on the KT.



There is a big difference between being the best and top 3rd unit. Also you must have some sort of a complex as you like to refer to people being worse in a PC game all the time. It automatically makes them all wrong of course.

You might not realise that it has 800 health, more armour, and a lot more pen than the T34-76, but that really matters in tank vs tank fights. Statistically it has approximately a 90% chance of winning 1vs1 against an Ost p4 (significantly higher % chance to pen + 25% more health), which costs 30mp and 10 fuel less. There's literally no medium as cost-efficient as the T34-85.

160 armour instead of 150 makes huge difference :snfPeter:
Anything has a lot more pen than T34/76 and I wouldn't call 120 far pen of T34/85 anything impressive vs axis vehicles.
Having ability to defeat OST P4 (but only before it reaches vet2) is totally worth building a doctrinal tank :thumb:
The only thing going there for T34/85 is the extra shot it can take before dying, surprisingly enough, 234 armour of OKW P4 (vetted OST P4) also boosts survivability against everything that isn't top tier TD.

Ost has plenty of counters to the T34-85, but that doesn't change the fact that the T34-85, in and of itself, is a top-of-class unit. If Ost had a unit that good, you and CODGUY would have quit the game already. Ost P4s already have a slight edge vs Shermans, T34-76s, and Cromwells, but the P4 still gets blown away by T34-85s.

You are retarded and I wish never to have to speak to you again.

The OKW p4 has high armour that gives it a very light repair burden and great survivability, so certainly an argument can be made that it's the best medium. But dissing the T34-85 simply means you're a really bad player who doesn't understand how incredibly cost-efficient the T34-85 is.

I'm happy you can finally see how good 234 armour of P4 is. If only you would notice the marginal far pen difference between the two tanks being inferior to the faster rate of fire of P4 with P4 also being stock.
If you can judge my skill level to be low by reading my comment which says that T34/85 was not the best medium tank, I can judge you to be retarded based on your comment that T34/85 "is great choice for taking on the KT".

In a world of medium tanks, OKW P4 has an advantage or fights on even ground with any any allied medium except for Comet and E8 and is stock. Doctrinal T34/85 has only advantage when fighting unvetted OST P4. How does that make T34/85 more desirable for allied players than OKW P4 for axis players? Please, don't answer, I don't care how bad you think I am. Also vetted OST P4 almost becomes the OKW P4. I rank the P4s right after stock Sherman and before the E8, then there would be your beloved T34/85.

Even if you are not retarded, you are not nice to talk to.
5 Nov 2019, 18:31 PM
#137
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

Funny how everyone thinks the best medium tank is the one they usually play against.
5 Nov 2019, 19:51 PM
#138
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6308 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 18:31 PMLago
Funny how everyone thinks the best medium tank is the one they usually play against.


Red unit OP. Buff blue.

Or, everyone judges a hammer for it's ability as a screwdriver.
5 Nov 2019, 20:26 PM
#139
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 382

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 09:07 AMKhan




Gaben what are you doing here?!
5 Nov 2019, 20:36 PM
#140
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 382

What USF needs is its medium killer separated from its heavy killer

Wher has the StuG to kill heavies and the panther to kill mediums
USF could have the wolverine non doc to kill mediums and the Jackson to kill heavies

Remove Hvap from the wolverine and make it non doc
Reduce the Jackson’s fire rate by 20 percent and increase its damage to 200
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