What about pak wall? Usf/UKF are hopeless without rocket arty if someone spam at guns
USF - pack howi\scott, brute force of upped inf, smoke, major arty, HE sherman.
UKF - smoke on all tanks (except FF\Centaur), smoke on tommies, tommy arty, brute force of upgraded tommies, sniper.
Excluding all doc options
No you HAVE to counter them by blobbing yourself. That's not good design at all
If you give rocket arty as stock, it wont change anything. USF\UKF will still blob. People blob because its working, because power of the units allow to do so and its effective.
What the hell happened to Penals and Obers? Did they get deleted from the game?
Blobing Obers? This OKW probably in forbes top 10.
And penals dont scale that good into mid\late game, they also dont have smoke\nades and snares if they dont have PTRS and if they do, their AI is non-problematic is not that good.
Ost makes up for it by having the best HMG in the game by far. It's easily the best at countering....blobs
HMGs are somewhat soft-counter to blobs, because while you can force them to retreat, you wont bleed their MP, they will just comeback, also considering USF\UKF have forward retreat points, its debatable.
The reason for it to be stock is blobbing. Every faction blobs, and rocket arty is by far the best anti-blob. If we can't fix blobbing the solution is stock rocket arty
My point was that, that upped USF\UKF blobs are by far the strongest compare to grens\volks blobs. You can counter them by blob of yourself, while Sov\Ost\OKW cant counter western allies blobs by their blobs, thats why they have stock rocket arty.
At least its my opinion.
if you want to argue how much extra grens are, (80mp and 10 fuel) and come with a snare, you could compare to say their matchup faction the soviet, who end up paying more and getting less to match an engineer/mg/ infantry start and then having to pay for their snare extra afterwards as well.
grens were not left in the dust against other factions, grens were never meant to stand quad for squad against other allied infantry. this is reflected in their cost. and do keep in mind as well, while allied squads cost more and do beat them, they also have additional costs ONTOP of being more expensive.
True but you also shoudnt forget that only allies have access to light vehicles at the start of the game. And this is a huge factor aswell, that the sole reason why OKW suffers THAT bad right now from them because they dont have access to snare, aside from fusiliers, untill tech. Allies have to pay\ern it sure, but also allies dont face vehicles strate of the bat. And you dont need snares to counter kubel.
USF\UKF have to pay for the nades, sure. But trade off for that is that your mainline inf is supperior in raw firepower, while Grens need their rifle nades to either fight supperior inf or 6 men support crews. But anyway they are still locked behind BP1.
And then weapon upgrades, grens get theirs very fast and can arm on the field, western allies need to buy racks
True, but upgraded USF\UKF inf ends up still better then upgraded grens, racks are here to allow you to scale your inf from early to mid to late game. In general upgrading grens is not something "optional" which changes their play, its the only way to make them stand a chance.
Soviet yes, but soviet were made to play with call-in inf, now they have penals\call-in\7-men squads. 7-men sqauds are here to make cons scale into late game. By the time grens get LMGs you would have elite inf to fight them, early on grens vs cons play is balanced.
It's the best "mortar" in the game sure, and it gets deleted easily by.... Guess what... Late-game arty. 5 man crew that needs 3 guys, so one single rocket can de-crew it
Aswell as any other inderect unit unit in the game. Also one single rocket can delete it yes, but what other options to counter if its well defended?
I really dont see any reason why caliope needs to be a non-doc unit, why USF "needs" its as a stock unit. Aside from the fact that they dont have stock rocket arty. If the sole reason is this, then you might aswell nerf it to be one-shotable as any other rocket arty in the game or bump its cost by twise the amount it is right now since even with nerf it will be twise as durable as other rocket arty in the game, while having same lvl of power.
Also not to mention that Urban assault, gives yous you access to elite inf + gives upgrades to litteraly all your army and tactival support turns your rifles into terminators with LMG, gives your mobile reinforcement car (+ best AA unit in the game).
Its not like you would pick the commander and only get main use of it by cali.
I'm well aware of the tech cost vipper, I literally just mentioned that for the walking stuka. Having access to rocket arty EVERY game no matter what > than no tech cost if you happen to pick the commanders. That was my point
Is it really a problem? As USF you have arguable best pak howi, you have mobile mortar unit like scott, which cant be counter artied. You have access to phosphore to counter bunched up team weapons or blobs.
Ost need werfer to fight allies upgraded inf, Sov need katy to fight okw blobs\ost teamweapons, OKW needs stuka to fight same allied inf and clear defensive possitions.
UKF dont have neither rocket arty or mobile mortar if you dont pick a commander.
Just, both Calliope and SZF are very survivable and obnoxious to deal with. One has health, other has range, both don't have clear cost effective counters.
SZF is generally DEEP behind lines, as it has no reason not to be, unless striking behind the lines.
Any LV ponetially can kill stuka, any tank will one-shot it. If you need to kill it that badly you can even suicide your medium to kill it and it will be 1 to 1 trade in terms of resources.
And here is simple mathematic.
Imagine that lets say PIV trying to kill caliope by rushing it. There is a support in terms of lets say 1 AT gun or other medium.
PIV need 3 hits to kill it, while itself need 4 hits to be killed. Imagine all hits penetrated caliope and and dead, while at the same time something was shooting at PIV, and effectively PIV will leave the fight being 1\2 shot from death, itself. All of this IF all hits penetrated cali and it didnt miss.
If you rush stuka, you effectively need 1 hit to kill it, with mediums. Even with support, if you cant snare\nuke rushing medium you wont save stuka if you miss played or didnt protect the flanks.
so the issue is that unsupported grens lose against more expensive infantry?
all grens need is a bonus against suppressed and pinned units to highlight them as support for the lmg42. they are not supposed to be fighting anything but conscripts alone
Yes it is the issue, not in unit but in design and enviroment it face. When you effectively need 2 units to fight 1. HMG42 can aswell force to retreat or hold the ground with or without grens.
Also again, this "more expensive" aurgument cant be really applyed to grens, because you actually need to spend time and resourses to get them. At least all other main-line inf comes from HQ. Sure you are not only getting grens, but also access to sniper\mortars, but still.
At the same time if MG42 was swaped with grens, ost would have been over run in every single match.
After all balance changes and new factions added, grens were left only balanced against Soviet cons, where cons win and close range, if they can get into it fast and grens win at long range.
Thats why pretty much osttropens are so popular, why 5 men grens are popular, why T1 skip is popular. Not because all of this are OP, but because you can make use of it and you wont be always 1 step behind your opponent if terms of mainline inf.
You get pgrens after BP1. What are you talking about?
They also have the best HMG in the game, their infantry is fine. Stock 5 man grens is absurd, I really can't believe people are still asking for this
Problem is, ost inf scales badly into lategame if you are playing without any doc. stuff.
Personally, I like LMG grens, they do feel powerfull, while default grens feels meh. 5 men grens are fine, G43 grens are somewhat fine, G43 PGs are excellent.
I find myself skipping T1 most of the time in favor of getting G43 PGs fast.
Grens are in general feels out of place. They are just not worth playing with in a long run.
You will lose long range fight vs UKF, USF can just rush you, Sov are fine as long as its not penals.
T1 is only good for sniper\mortar, but grens are meh.
Not to mention considering Bren carrier, Jeep and Clowncar possible oppenings, rushing BP1 will hardcounter it and you wont bleed as a pig trying to snare and finish it.
On the other note, I really hate 5 men grens. Not because their power, but because it removes any possabilities of buffing them. I would rather honestly see them as more expensiмe 260\270 inf, but with proper long range power and survivability. But now its not possible because 5 men up exists.
It feels like some ppl in this thread intentionally or not think that proposal is to make capiope one-shotable unit.
Ppl ask here to lower its HP to 360 instead of 400, so it would die to 2 shots instead of 3.
And please, why are you acting like its perfomance as rocket arty is garbage. Its not worst then katy at shotgunning and even better then katy.
If katy can go into short range and shoot, being one-shotable unit, then lowering caliope HP wont take its "durability", "ment to be durable".
Still I dont see any logical explanation why 400HP is justified, while 360 is not, aside from abstruct one "its premium", "it has to be durable", "its a tank" and so on.