This is just pure nitpicking if you ask me. We can as well say, why "War Machine" existed in vCoH, because it also does look kinda fictional. I will repeat myself again, lets just sum up what kind of fiction was allowed for CoH across both games:
1) Misrepresentation of units
2) Some fictional abilities on units
3) Rare or super rare used equipment representation
4) Believable abilities made to fit gameplay
5) Fictional, but belivable, ammunition on a small scale (grenades mostly)
6) Pure gameplay abilities which-in the scope of represented factions (vCoH USA "War Machine")
7) Wrong time periods
8) Wrong availability of rare equipment
Where would you put Black Prince? It wasn't finished, it wasn't used, it wasn't put into a production. Literally 6 were made and all 6 were prototypes. Besides the fact that BP looks like a ww2 tank, it doesn't fit into any category CoH previously allowed itself to mess with.
The BP does not fit any of your bullet points, but the problem with your list is that there is no reason for it to be the "be all end all". Why should there not be a 9th point added to it? The criterium is not 'what has been done before', but 'what is authentic'. And that's obviously a very subjective criterium, as we can see in this discussion. Some players basically don't care at all, some are very specific, and everything in between.
The BP is a vehicle developed for the war, based on a vehicle and components that have already been used in the war, but the BP itself has never been used in it. We can therefore make some estimates how it might have performed in battle, but using it in a CoH game is pure fiction. My point is, that there is no >huge< difference to e.g. the V1 rocket in CoH: This weapon, as portrayed in the game, has not existed and it is pure fiction. Just pretending it were a "V1 rocket" does not make its use authentic. There has never been a rocket of this type in WW2 that could even somewhat precisely strike a battlefield. It does not get any of the characteristics of the V1 correctly. It looks like a V1, and the name says V1. That's about all there is. Which leads me to the next point, which you summed up perfectly here:
And it would have been perfectly fine with-in the scope of how CoH gameplay mechanics works. Aside from balance\faction reasoning and some commons sense, kubelwagen could be made into a TD, with an ability to fire its MG into some tank weakspot or something
Stuff like this we have already seen in CoH1 and 2. Authenticity is not a binary decision, it's a spectrum. At which point something looks out of place is a subjective thing. Is the BP okay because it looks like a WW2 tank and its performance can somewhat be estimated, although it has only been prototyped? Is the V1 rocket okay, since it is a weapon that has been used, albeit nothing like portrayed in the game? Is the Sturmtiger okay, although it is a rare vehicle and actually had more the range of a Katyusha than a tank?
How closely the in-game unit has to resemble the real thing is really personal taste.
As I stated previously, I'd personally rather not have the BP in the game for various reasons. But it also won't completely break immersion for me if Relic keeps it. I can live with it, but I also don't get why Relic clings on to the BP so much. |
Except, CoH fiction was with-in the scope of actually used equipment. CoH fictions were mostly presented in the abilities\capabilities of the authentic units.
Having fictional grenades or stylised fictional ability on the unit\commander is not the same as having completely fictional tank\unit.
It's splitting hairs at this point, but slapping a real name on a unit does not equal authenticity either. Of course concessions have to be made to gameplay, but authenticity (at least for me) means, that what I see in the game could have occurred that way. This doesn't mean that every unit is as realistic as possible, but at least the general "ranking" of units and their main features, strengths and weaknesses are represented, which CoH got roughly right in most cases. A Sherman will lose to a Tiger or Panther. LMGs work great on long ranges. Airplanes come in and strafe your units (concession to gameplay here are their 100m turn radius, attack pattern, accuracy etc, but calling in air support and strafing runs to take out positions is realistic), etc etc.
BUT: As in the example of the V1 rocket, it is not authentic at all. Those rockets have not been used that way, they have not interferred in ongoing battles and never had the accuracy to actually hit something smaller than a large town. The model of this weapon in CoH1 is completely fictional, just saying it were a "V1" rocket does not make it authentic, since neither its uses, nor strengths or weaknesses are conveyed in the slightest.
If the main criterium is "has this equipment been used in WW2?", you're not aiming at authenticity either. At this point, it would be fine to use a normal Churchill (hek, even a Sherman) and just slap Black Prince stats on top of it so it can defeat a Panther. I am sure most people would not be fine with that. |
Better, but still looks untidy to me.
So many floating and protruding elements, why? CoH2's UI occupies way too much of the screen, but at the very least it is thematic and clearly separates the screen into the battlefield and static elements.
CoH3's UI is not thematic at all and constantly mixes static elements with snippets of the moving background. E.g. near the minimap. I don't need these tiny spaces to the left and bottom, I won't pick up information through these anyway. This could at least be used to make the UI 'pretty' or but some better info there. |
2CP is a lot when it comes to the opening game against OKW. Sturm Pioneers and Volkgrenadiers who have access to the STG-44 at the start are quite dominant against the Soviets.
Current Soviets are already good enough to counter that (or endure it until they get their T7). The PPSh upgrade is supposed to give you an earlier power spike than you'd otherwise have. This can be timed as wanted. It could be the ability for a PPSh call in squad at the start or the current 2 CP upgrade or anything in between or later. All options are fine, but they all have to be tuned a bit differently. If e.g. 0 CP PPSh on Conscripts are the way to go, we talk about a different squad than what the 2 CP PPSh Conscript should be.
Also, isn't the StG44 upgrade also tied to an OKW truck being set up? But even if not, realistically, the first upgrade will be affordable around minute 4 because you don't have the muni for it. Afterwards, you generate enough muni for one upgrade roughly every 2 minutes. OKW won't have StGs for that long before you can upgrade PPSh.
The issue in my eyes is that they neither offer enough of an early spike nor a much different playstyle or options to forgo the strong 7 men upgrade. On current rather open maps, 7 men Conscripts are the better choice. And even on maps with more close range focus, there is a decent chance that 7 men Conscripts will do fine enough and you can pick a different commander, especially because PPSh Conscripts overlap with Shock Troops at this point. |
Well now it's definitely not worth it to be in 2CP it is, in the current situation it's only suitable as 0CP or as British Assault Section. I'm afraid it won't change anyway. Are patches planned at all? Or just wait for СoH3?
Not that I'd be any official, but there is nothing planned for CoH2 anymore. Would be highly strange behaviour to divert attention to the previous entry when the next iteration is coming out in 2 months (and obviously still needs a lot of work).
2CP timing is like ~6-7 minutes. Not hugely mistimed in my opinion. The timing of the upgrade also has nothing to do if they should be come almost an elite unit or not. Current Conscripts get their 7 men upgrade even later, this doesn't mean they should out-do all other infantry on the field including elites.
6-7 minutes is fairly normal for weapon upgrades to come unlock.
If there ever were a patch, there's two options: Either - as you suggested - remake them into a specialized call-in like squad or 0 CP upgrade, or keep the current timing and design with adjustments to make it really worth picking over the 7 men upgrade. |
The commander slot is screwed up. Hit the dirt was never worth the risk, especially not when your opponent has long range rifle grenades and bundles and your Conscript squad was never good in long range engagements in the first place. The bonuses this ability provides are fairly weak. I think balance team either did not have any better ideas or were not allowed to do more with the commander slot, so they just bundled two subpar abilities together into one, not really caring that there is no synergy and therefore not much increased value.
I liked the PPSh upgrade a couple of years ago, although it had its weaknesses. I think the reason why it is quite bad now is not really the upgrade itself or changes to Axis factions, but the map pool and Soviet changes. Speaking for 2v2 and 3v3, of the maps with short ranged engagements are gone. At the same time, Conscripts were very bad in the late game back then, so there was still an upgrade when getting them. Now the PPSh competes with the 7 men upgrade that Cons urgently needed for their late game. The lack of a real grenade also hurts the PPSh upgrade. |
I've pointed this out to you before, we require at least a minimum effort for opening posts in balance threads.
I'll lock this thread since there is no point to it this way. |
The only issue I have with CoH2's forward reinforcement system is, that forward retreat points exist. Those promote blobbing and careless movement because the cost of retreat gets diminished heavily. On top of that, not all factions have access to forward retreat/healing/reinforcement points and even the one's that have differ a lot in accessibility.
Ostheer did it best:
No forward retreat point, giving incentive to smart movement, disengagement when necessary and soft retreats. At the same time. Forward healing and reinforcement are available but either gated by fuel/micro (251) or static structures that are vulnerable to artillery (bunkers).
This way, Ostheer still gets punished if they are fully routed and can lose their forward structures, but you can gain significantly if you consistently manage to hold your line and prevent enemy reconnaissance.
On the point of tying reinforcement time to unit classes: CoH2 ties it to combat value, at least for the most part, and that's what makes the most sense. A e.g. Grenadier has higher combat value than a Conscript and due to the long range LMG also lower risk of dying. Losing one should be punished more than losing a Conscript.
There can be definitely some overlap with "unit classes" as Vipper suggested with the support weapons, but deciding on a unit per unit bases is still the smartest thing to do and also gives more room to differential faction design (e.g. Faction A relying more on team weapons and needs them more readily available than faction B etc). |
I wouldn't chose to say Elefant mass produced either.
You are simply wrong.
Elefant was the most successful mass produced TD in kill ratio with around 10:1 score.
Which one?
Point here is that Elafant had probably the best kill ratio (around 10) (for TDs that went beyond prototype).
The 12.8 cm Selbstfahrlafette auf VK3001(H) seems to have had a better kill ratio of above 11 but was only build as prototype and only 2 where ever build.
I am not sure why some people choose to argue semantics about mass production when the point was the actual great record Elefant achieved and not weather it was mass produced or not.
That's also not the point.
This part of the discussion originated from the question if and to which extend rare vehicles should be represented in the game as an extension of the whole discussion around the Black Prince. Since CoH allegedly aims to be authentic, the battles it shows and units within them must be authentic too. All of this was basically embedded if unicorn units should be in CoH3 because the weird designs obviously kick the door open for interesting mechanics and unit designs, or if CoH3 should rather stick to the most prevalent vehicles since it is not very believable that in the specific skirmish that you fight, a huge portion of very rare vehicles will take part and duel each other.
A prime example of this for me would actually be the Ostwind, I am amazed that no one mentioned it so far. The FlakpanzerIV was a late development as well. However, Relic not only decided to make it a stock option for Ostheer, but also chose the Ostwind, which was the least numerous of all Flakpanzers. They could have taken at least the Mobelwagen for that purpose. They didn't, and yet, no one seems to complain about it in this discussion. It slightly feels like people would just randomly pick what they care about and then press through all of it.
In my opinion: As long as a vehicle has been used in WW2, they can take it. "Rarer" vehicles should be bound to doctrines so that you don't see more of them in a single battle than have been built in the first place. But they can add a lot of different strategies to the game, because let's face it: If you strip away all the details that a CoH game cannot represent, many of the most produced tanks over the course of the war just fall into the same category with different flavors of "strong". |
...
You're taking things too literal. Editing also means adding info. You can even literally edit any page on wikipedia, and the review process there is often not competent, so a ton of none sense comes through regularly.
If it was "mass produced" or not is a matter of where you personally draw the line. Objectively, we can say that the project was scrapped early and the that those tanks would not have existed if the company had not overinvested into building chassis during development. Production numbers are far from other standard tanks and tank hunters.
I wouldn't call it mass produced. The Ferdinand was not planned from the beginning, they had those chassis lying around and had something to do with it. The Ferdinand was basically developed after the the base of the tank, it was not a straightforward decision and production process, which would usually be the case for anything you'd call mass produced. |