I am not sure about that since C.Panther is probably better at dealing with IS-2 than the tiger,
especially with the mark target.
It's not, because the Tiger's DPM and durability advantages easily outweigh the minor advantages (vet 0 range, slightly more penetration, slightly better mobility) that the (Command) Panther has, when looking at a fight with an IS-2. Coordinated Fire only lasts for two reloads (three if you'd time it absolutely perfectly) and only shaves off 1 shot (from 7 to 6). And on top of that, the Tiger will also kill infantry way more effectively while being only slightly more expensive.
In my opinion, it's the IS-2's needlessly high armor that's causing problems, and which is effectively forcing OKW and Ostheer into Tiger Is as that unit is the only reliable counter (with the Panther being okay, but only until the IS-2 hits vet 2 and Ostheer can not transition into T4 that easily in 1v1). If we'd lower the IS-2s armor, units like the StuG, JP4, Panther and ATGs and Shrecks will have an easier time dealing with it, which should hopefully mean that Grand Offensive will no longer be the only viable choice OKW has against Soviets.
Along with some minor adjustments to the Tiger I's (and all heavies') timing, we should see a decrease in GO picks after that. OKW has plenty of good commanders, but I think players simply didn't want to risk picking them in a tourney where the strong Soviet late game dominated with a 10k doller pricepool on the line.
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Okay then, poll the top 150 and let’s see how many agree with you.
Given how basically no one, besides you, claims "OKW is underpowered and crutches solely on the Tiger I", I'll assume the silent majority agrees that OKW is generally fine or they would've made a fuzz about it otherwise. So I'll leave the polling up to you to prove otherwise. |
At least I have stats, what do you have?
Skewed win ratios of 25 games is not "stats".
I used pick rates, that with such a low sample size are more reliable and revealing than win ratios (although absolutely not definitive), over a better (but still very low) sample size of 73 games. And I have my game intuition and analysis, as that is basically my job for Relic, as well as experience and knowledge from the internal balance discussions we've had lately.
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Okay let’s try again:
Of all okw vs usf games, there are 2 commanders picked more than once. 12 times Grand Offensive was picked, for 8 wins. 13 times Luftwaffe was picked for 4 wins. I ask again: Is the Tiger I a crutch counterpick vs the IS2 or a general faction crutch?
Sure, let's determine an entire faction's performance on a grand total of 25 games.
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If it’s a crutch against the IS2, then why did people not go Elite Armoured for HEAT shells?
Either they were wrong, or your assessment of the Tiger being an IS2 counterpick is wrong.
Because effectiveness =/= efficiency. Getting Jagdpanzer IVs or Panthers and continuously sink munitions into HEAT shells is effective too, but why take the risk when it's more efficient to go for a Tiger I that doesn't need munitions to fight the IS-2 and can also fight infantry at the same time?
Strong Soviet lategame (efficient 7 men Cons and IS-2) is what's causing some problems and forcing the Axis into a corner. Minor nerfs to both should give the Axis more options to fight the lategame and lower their reliance on the Tiger I. |
Problem is the Tiger crutching started alongside the Volk/early game nerfs and USF buffs
That doesn't make sense. The Tiger I is a lategame unit that relies on good early and mid game performance to even arrive because it costs so much to call in. What do the early game adjustments have to do with that? It's not a crutch unit for OKW, it's a crutch unit for facing the IS-2 as it's the only reliable counter. And OKW's Tiger I is preferred over Ostheer's one because OKW with its Puma is more reliable against light vehicles.
The WCS stats do seem to support this (although not definitively so of course, because of very low sample size) as Grand Offensive was picked in 66% of games against Soviets and only in 36% of games against USF. So players apparently do not feel like the Tiger I is the only option for OKW, just that it's the only good option to face the IS-2. The Tiger I is a very good unit, but not "OKW's only crutch".
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My only question is:
If we can accept that super heavy tanks like JT, Ele and ISU152 are more than likely never gonna be viable outside of REALLY niche situations on 1v1, why can't the same line of thought be had regarding heavy tanks arriving slightly later on teamgames when there is a higher volume of units that could counter them
Because heavy tank destroyers and assault guns are only in 5 out of 71 commanders. Heavy tanks are significantly better represented at 9 (15 if we count the KV-2, Crocodile and AVRE) commanders.
Furthermore, heavy TDs are problematic in 1v1s because of limited use/performance and not because of timing issues, while heavy tanks currently perform well across all gamemodes and (arguably) only timing is an issue. It's already been proven long ago that the heavy TDs would never work across all gamemodes, because they aren't versatile enough (without being OP), while there is still a lot of wiggle room left for heavies.
I see no reason to give up already and condemn another 9-15 commanders to go out of meta in some gamemodes (the most popular ones at that) when there's still a good chance that some minor adjustments will make them fit in more easily. |
Well, when my Ost win rate magically halfs since the last patch (and I used to be 2v2 top 10 every now and then) and I see a win rate of roughly a third of the Ost games played in the tournament it prooves enough for me.
And my Ostheer rank went from 8 to 3 and I still have a steady 77% win ratio since the last patch. Subjective experiences or incredibly low sample sizes mean nothing.
If there would be automatch stats showing a significant drop or gap in WR over (tens of) thousands of games, then we'd have actual proof that something's up with Ostheer. But barely 56 tournament games and some peoples' personal ranks do not prove anything. Those "stats" are highly unreliable. |
I think stats confirm those
Can we please all realise that these stats do not confirm anything. The sample size is way too low, and because of that there are numerous factors that make these statistics unreliable. As Siphon specifically notes in his observations:
While these stats might give us an idea about the general state of balance in 1v1 to some extend, it should be noted that any the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, for various reasons:
- Most games are decided by the skill gap between opponents (see below).
- We look at a small number of matches.
- The games are played on a subset of maps only. Performance on other maps might be very different. Also, starting positions were fixed, so wins or losses might be related to that, despite the valiant efforts to improve the maps prior to the tournament.
- Previous tournaments showed that each individual player has certain strengths and weaknesses when it comes to handling different factions.
- [Because of the best of five format, 3:0 wins translate into an artificial 67% win rate for whatever side was played first and third, while the real win ratio would be 50%]
These statistics are very globally indicative of trends at best, and not even remotely close to anything definitive.
13 Elite Armored Doctrine
221 produce 0
ST produced 0
Again the fact that no 221 was produced indicates how weak and cost ineffective this unis is.
Imo it should become separated vehicle from 223 and designed balanced separately.
Elite Armor was in loadouts 13 times. It was actually picked only 3 times, by only two players if I'm reading these stats correctly, so this does not really indicate anything. Other than that these two players happened to not build the unit for whatever unknown reason. |
There many solution of these problem, like:
Change CP gain across MODs so that timing is closer (it can be moded)
Relic won't allow such drastic core changes at this stage.
Tone down the vet bonuses of TDs if needed
Tone down the base stat of Super heavies and move them to veternacy so that these unit have lower shock value when they arrive.
Messing too much with TDs is very dangerous given how much weight they currently carry.
Moving some vet 0 performance to veterancy is certainly an option, but we're currently exploring some other changes first.
There also solution other solution like:
CD starts when unit lost (can be moded)
We are currently striving to implement this.
Simply increase target size of Super heavies and adjust chance to hit accordingly.
That would increase the accuracy of literally everything that's firing at a heavy, not just TDs, which is unnecessary and unwanted. The current target size of 26 already gives TDs a 91-100% chance to hit at max range so I'm not sure what that's supposed to achieve anyway. It'd be way too much work to adjust the accuracy of every single weapon to accommodate this. |