"Simply" re-roll the original values.
Then "simply" make small adjustments to every single infantry squad in the game.
Then "simply" make adjustments to all other crutch units to compensate for the new infantry balance.
Then "simply" make adjustments to lots of commander abilities to compensate for the new infantry balance.
To me that somehow really doesn't sound like less work than introducing one upgrade to Conscripts and a minor timing change for Panzergrenadiers to bring Ostheer and Soviet T0/T2 up to speed.
That is because you are assuming that earlier Pg and and 7 men conscript will actually work an solve the problems
If the approach was working the infatry fights would be balanced 2 years ago and not simply moving to new uncharted water every 6 months.
Ostheer does not really struggle because of Grenadiers. Ostheer mainly struggles because of M42 spam, WC-51 Cav Riflemen and 5 men Tommies that can no longer be abused by 222s.
Tomato tomahto, potato potahto.
Ostheer wouldn't struggle if grenadiers where up to the task and did not have to resort to cheese like FHT, 444 and ostruppen.
That's all well and good when you've got a lot of balancing resources available.
In the current circumstances, minimising the amount of balance work that needs doing is a very important consideration. Resources are very limited.
Having a power against cost line you're trying to put units on is a good idea, but in the present circumstances you'd want to draw that line through as many units as possible rather than draw it through Grenadiers and adjust everything to fit it.
Actually the changes made MOD are equally big with the changes Relic did.
And it is not even that difficult one has simply to re-roll to original values and make small adjustments.
It is actually allot less work than experimenting with earlier PG and 7 men conscripts.
Hence, the relative balancing approach we have last 3 years. There is no benchmark, because not a single group of units were changed to match a cost effective performance of specific opposing units, every single unit changed over last 3 years was changed because IT was the issue, not to be leveled with another, with maybe exception of soviet sniper, which was kind of both.
Or in simplier words:
The benchmark changes all the time and there is no magical constans to be followed. That approach was dropped over 5 years ago now.
And inb4 "relic said so, so its truth"
You are simply missing the point. I am not saying what has been done since MOd team took over, I am simply saying what should be done.
But your theory that the MOD team does not uses a benchmark and does not compare units is simply false as one can see from the patch notes:
M17 Quad
We wanted to tone down the performance of the Quad to be in-line with Light Tanks and other suppression platforms. In order to make infantry counters to this unit viable, the M17 can no longer suppress enemy squads on the move.
Mortars
The escalation of mortar power has made them over perform compared to other types of more costly artillery pieces that had not received this bonus such as Pack Howitzers and Mortar Half-tracks.
It there in black and white that the units are being evaluated in comparison with other units.
So make the benchmark riflemen and adjust accordingly.
You can talk about grenadiers all day but clinging to the past doesn't help. Right now, adjusting cons and grenadiers is a much easier fix than adjusting literally everything else
And of the two, cons need a whole lot more attention, which is the point the patch has tried to address.
Setting Riflemen as the benchmark only increases the power level of units. VG and Penal would still be OP, while grenadier and conscripts would still be UP.
Not really Soviet are doing fine the conscript issue is diversity issue not balance issue, it is the Ostheer that struggle.
The thing is, grenadiers are designed to fight from long range with lmgs and have the mg42 covering them from closing units. How can they be the benchmark for units such as the riflemen and volks who are mobile and independent and can fight from mid/close range?
"Infantry Combat Tuning
The intent of these changes is to better define the strengths and weaknesses of each core unit relative to one another. We wanted to better define how each core unit should engage their perspective targets. For example, in a Grenadier vs. Riflemen match up, the Grenadiers want to maintain range. This is now a valid tactic, where in the past it was not. An integral element to this iteration is the introduction of received accuracy in place of raw damage. This was used in instances where additional fire power was not necessary in maintaining the established unit relationships. For example, Grenadier long range fire power is high enough to establish the unit’s relative relationship with other units, allowing us to increase their durability instead. As a by-product of this shift, short and mid range units should have an easier time closing in on their target."
Relic's early balancing process involved setting initial costs using an 'effective value' equation. They used Grenadiers as the benchmark other infantry squads were compared to.
Vipper's stance, if I've understood it correctly, is that this approach should be continued and all infantry squads should be rebalanced around the Grenadier.
When building the game in the first place, this is a sensible approach. It stops you getting into a cycle of buff leapfrog and keeps the goalposts fixed in one place.
At this point though, with a populated game and very limited balancing resources? It's not hard to see why the balance team chooses to buff one or two squads rather than nerf eight or nine.
Only that is not what actually happened. Penal and VG where set to be OP compared to Grenadiers and ever since then the changes that had to be implemented involved buffing almost every unit in the game, leaving Grenadier and Conscripts UP. And now there talks about buffing conscripts and Grenadiers so that the circle can begin once more.
Until someone provides I better process I see little alternative than deciding a power level for a unit and balancing all other unit vs that benchmark.
I don't see anybody else using your benchmark argument, feel free to prove me wrong.
And it's fairly simple, if the unit is seemingly performing badly at some point in time and fine in others it seems logical and obvious that something is wrong, not to mention the probably hundreds of threads and people I've seen noting that it's a problem.
A real life example I can give you is that some mud got under the engine of my car because I drove over some rough terrain so I put an engine shield to protect it. The car being the Grenadiers here and the engine shield the 5th man respectively. It's probably not the best example I could have given to prove my point but it's the best one I could think of right now.
In other words you compare it with another unit and that is actually using a benchmark.
Granted you guys are right, the majority were actually proper soldier and transfers from other brackets like Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine, but I didn’t remember completely wrong as there were quite a few old men and teenagers recruited.
Still, point taken.
Also Vipper, grens might have been the benchmark by relic in th past, but haven’t we gone past that? Every other mainline, save for cons, significantly outperforms them. As for nerfing penals and guards, it would be criminal. The soviets would then be absolutely unplayable until a maxim/cons buff. As for the Volks nerf, no argument there.
UKF and USF are seen as quasi unplayable in tournament settings.
Soviets is seen as most competitive.
Making all allied factions unplayable perfectly goes with Vipper's doctrine of nerf allies, buff axis.
Kriegsmarine. Forgot an E.
Some people believe Penals should be nerfed because "penal" for exact same reason some believe
"volks" should be nerfed because "volks". Yea. a lot of children and old men in there.
- I'd like uniforms to be swapped from Penals to Cons and from Cons to Penals.
And Penals rebranded as Strelski. Give 'em mosins with a DP28 upgrade (and sandbags)
Pls do not put words in my mouth. I did not post that allies should be nerfed and axis buffed. Actually I said the exact opposite that VG should be nerfed and Grenadier not buffed.
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
Heartless Jäger 
